How solid is your dog's understanding of their stand cue? Join us for a conversation on how to teach the stand and why it's such an important skill for competition obedience.

Transcription

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I have Janice Gunn with me to talk about competition, obedience and the stand in particular. Hi Janice, welcome to the podcast.

Janice Gunn: Hi. Thank you, Melissa. Glad to be here.

Melissa Breau: Super excited to chat about this. Do you want to just start us off maybe by reminding folks a little bit about you, kind of who you are, what you do?

Janice Gunn: Sure. I have been around forever. It's like the first time I stepped in the ring was amazingly 52 years ago. And I can't believe that it's actually that number now. And it's not like I'm a hundred years old.

Right. But it was, I've been in it for a very, very long time. So I've been competing, I compete in AKC and CKC obedience. I also do retriever field work. I'm quite involved with that and I've been fairly involved recently with the canine fitness training which I find to be really fun and challenging. So it's great layer of training that I'm exploring dog wise. I have a retired Labrador, Remy is 13 and he's an OTCH dog, Pounce, 12 years old, retired OTCH dog.

They're also field master hunter dogs and I'm currently competing with my dog Seven who is coming up to 6 years old and he's an OTCH as well. And I have Katch who will be three in May and I have not competed with him yet. He's had some physical issues that he's been recovering from. It's probably taken us about 10 months in total out of our training. So he's a bit behind, but he's actually because of his injury is the dog that kind of got me into the canine fitness.

Sometimes you never really get serious about it until you have to. And he loves it. All the dogs love doing it. And I have a seven month, just turned seven month old Labrador puppy and her name is Chime.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. It's a full house, man. Yeah. So I wanted to have you on to talk about teaching the Stand for Exam. So let's start maybe with the foundation skills there.

I know we were talking about this a little before we hit record, but personally I find Stand to be kind of one of the harder things to teach my dogs. So what is it about Stand that makes it more difficult than say a sit or a down?

Janice Gunn: So the Stand because they're on four legs, and they don't really have the same kind of an anchor as if they were in a sit or a down they have.

It's just much easier for them to move. And I feel that they're a little bit more vulnerable in a stand as well. They don't feel too anchored. One of the things that. When I was interested in coming out with a new video topic, I put up a question on my Facebook page, and I just. I was just curious, you know, what do. What would people like to see me do as a topic?

And I had stand for exam. I had stand, go get your leash. I had the moving stand, I had the signal stand. And these were from all. From different people. And of course, it was intermixed with other requests. But as I went through the posts, it was like over and over again, I kept seeing the same questions about let's do something on the stand because my dog won't do this or he moves or, you know, things like that.

How can I make this better? So when I saw that repeatedly, I kind of thought, you know, I think that is going to be a really good topic to work on. And then when I listed it out, and I didn't even actually realize myself. But in competition obedience, we do a lot of stands, and it's through every single level. So from novice, open, and utility. So in novice, we start with the stand for exam, and then we go into open, and we have to do it now two times.

So you have your stand in the command discrimination, and then you have your stand, go get your leash. And then. So that's open two times. Then you go into utility, and you're doing stand again two more times. So we have the utility moving stand and also the signal stand. So I just thought, like, wow, you know, that's a lot of stands in obedience that we do. And, you know, it's.

So it just makes it, like a really important thing to want to teach properly because it's in every level. And I also think that it's the stand. Teaching the stand is a really overlooked exercise in which it really shouldn't be when we have to do it so many different times.

Melissa Breau: Yeah. Is there a trick to kind of how you build it so that you get a stand without the dog kind of moving their feet? Like, how do you teach that piece of the behavior? Is there a trick?

Janice Gunn: Yeah. So when I teach the puppy, you know, at puppy stand, I'm teaching them, you know, I'm just down on the ground with them and I'm just teaching them what the maneuvers are like from stand to sit, from sit to stand down, and that is, you know, kind of just fairly free. And I'm just there with them.

But then when you have to start adding in, you know, verbal signal, distance, stuff like that, that's when things start to fall apart. So way back even, you know, 30 years ago when I was doing competition obedience, we, you know, I would build a box and it was just out of pvc. It was the gutters that you use on the house. So the house gutters, and I would cut them into three foot lengths so that it would make this box and it was comfortable for the dogs because, you know, it was probably about 3 inches high all the way around.

And it wasn't specifically sized, made for the dog. So they had a little bit of room to maneuver in it without creating a lot of motion. So that's what I was using in the beginning like 30 years ago. So there was even then some form of, you know, give them a place. And from there, you know, a lot of people were then using the PVC box and that's where you would make it out of the 1 inch PVC piping and you would make it, you know, size appropriate to the dog.

But, you know, I did, I never really was a fan of that one, the 1 inch PVC. Most dogs didn't, you know, didn't differentiate being in that in it. And so it just was never one of my favorites. And then from there, because training always evolves. So I'm not doing today. What I did 30 years ago was platform training. And so I train with Michelle Pouliot a little bit.

And at that time she was using these platforms for freestyle. And I thought, ah, you know, I could, I can see a lot of applications that I can use the platform for in competition obedience. So that's what I started on next was, you know, I get the platform, got a couple platforms had. My students were making platforms and quite enjoyed that phase. But basically, you know, the platforms are about 2 inches off the ground.

You have to make them size appropriate to the dog so you can't allow for a lot of movement. And so what I found was that the dogs on the stand, even though they wouldn't come forward because they'd, you know, go over the edge when I, they would go into a stand, they, they wouldn't kick all the way back with their back legs, they tended the back would stay somewhat hunched.

So they were, there was, they just weren't comfortable 100% with it. And the same thing would happen in the down. So if I'd asked them to go into a down, I would get that same sort of hunchback. And I guess they just were concerned that they, you know, they would flop over the edge. And so it just made them, you know, stiff, I would say is a word maybe to use stiff on the platform.

And I found with the down as well, and especially once you started to do, to build distance, if you're looking for the down where they either, you know, they kind of fold back a little bit so that the front feet don't come forward, well, what would happen is the front feet could easily come forward because there was nothing to stop it. So I was finding that was another thing with it.

So even though the platform had its place and I really enjoyed it, I've kind of evolved again since then. And I'm using footboard so it'll be similar to, you know, like a 2x4. And I put a non skid stair tread on the top of it. And I've gone from a two by four so that it's only like now like a one inch. So it's not that far off the ground.

It's a little bit wider than a 2x4, but it doesn't give her any movement. So that anchors my dog's front feet. And that is, I'm like, okay, I really like this. You know, you magnetize them to the front of it and they put their feet there and that if they come off of it, then it's clear to them they're not getting reinforcement. You put them back on it, that's where they get reinforcement.

So, the magnetization does start to happen to the two front feet on it. And so I was really enjoying that. And then I found, you know, with that though, and it is not just for myself, but also for, you know, people that take my classes or seminars that the front feet, even on that in a down, they could still come a little bit forward. So you still got that issue.

They don't. It's hard for dog to maintain his fold back down on his own. So they do need a little bit help and muscle memory for a while. So what I ended up doing was putting a lip in front of the footboard and so that there was a little barrier so that the front feet couldn't come forward. So that was really great and quite liked it. And, and now I've designed a, what I call one of my instructors and, she's making them for me in it we call it a paw box.

And it's got every component that I need. So it's got. It's got a front that can come off so that the dog, if the dog does want to come forward. But it's basically. It's a wooden box that has the front two sides. It's got the footboard in the front, the sides to create straightness. Because one of my dogs would be crooked. He was a twisted dog, and if he would go into a stand, he'd twist his body.

He twists his body on the sit, and a lot of them do it going into the down. So I've kind of come up with this now that I'm really liking. It's kind of got pieces of everything that I've used over the years together, and it works really, really well. I've got my puppy in it right now, and I can take her from doing her positions now in the box to.

I'll just. I like to check where the dog is. I don't want to rely on it 100%, like, all the time. So I want to do a check. Okay. Is my dog going to be able to maintain what he's learning in the box? So I'll do a few in the box, and then I'll take the box away, and then I will try and see what happens. And it's, yeah, looking really, really good.

No movement. And then when I go different places, if I want, I can just take the footboard part and take that with me. And that's just a reminder because it's so important. Important in the beginning or as a retrain that you don't want to allow that movement. So that's one of the. The tricks in a very long answer that I use.

Melissa Breau: It's okay. Very long answers are good.

We like very long answers. They give us lots of information. So it sounds like, you know, I was going to ask, say that the other issue that we see. Right. Is dogs creeping forward. But it sounds like having that ledge kind of on the front of the front foot target helps with that, too. Is that. Is that kind of right?

Janie Gunn: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It gives them, you know, a place.

I also, you know, I'll incorporate. I have just, you know, it looks like a Frisbee. It's sort of a. It said a star mark disc that I really like. And I'll put the dogs, you know, once they know all the. The positions or they know how to stand, I'll use that as an anchor as well, because I find, you know, if you've if you've been using a box.

Box for getting all this work, and. And then you start adding in things like, I would be doing my stand for exam and that I would be doing it in the box first. But then when you have to remove that at some point, so I would have a footboard, or I would just put this disc down, and that would be like an anchor. So what I see in the classes is that a student will go from, you know, training in the box or training on a footboard or something, and then they'll be.

Everybody's gonna do stand for exams now, and they set their dog up for the stand, and when the person comes in, the dog moves, or when they leave, the dog moves. So it's like. Then you want to break it down even further. So put an anchor out, put the footboard out, put the disc out. I've had to do that with my own dogs. And it just gives them the same. A little bit of security blanket until they can learn the exercise and feel comfortable with somebody coming in towards them or you moving away from them.

Melissa Breau: Speaking of kind of the other person component. Right. Are there other pieces that you kind of think about when it comes to that for, like, breaking things out and really making sure that kind of beyond just having a stand stay, the dog understands that the behavior involves kind of that other person?

Janice Gunn: Yes. So you have your, you know, the situation where you want the dog to be comfortable in the stand, and then you have, like, you say the person now. And for some dogs, we have, you know, it's. You have your dogs that are so overzealous, they're friendly, they're waggy, their tails are going, you know, and having a person come in, it's like, you know, so exciting. And it's so hard for them to hold their impulse, you know, to go greet this person.

So we have to train that. And then you also have the flip side to that. You know, where you've got the dog that is nervous. They don't want somebody coming in towards them. They don't feel comfortable with it. So you've got to do something for, you know, both this type of dog and so I have a couple of different focus methods that I will train into my dog.

I will teach them this first so that I can take the pressure, either the good pressure or the bad pressure. I can take it off my dog, give them a place to focus so they don't have to think so much about this person coming in. I'll also have them make sure that, you know, they're not even touching the dog on the first time. They just come and they stand next to the dog and until the dog can, you know, feel comfortable with that.

And then I'm playing these focus games so that they're not worried about the person. So I think that's really important as well. And then another thing that I really do with my own dogs and I tell everybody is, you know, the first time you do a sit for exam or the first time you do a stand for exam is you do it with yourself first. So you want to do the whole thing.

Like, I like to set my dog up and they hear the lingo. This is your stand for exam. You may stand your dog and leave when ready. So that's coming out of my mouth. My dog's hearing that I stand them, I lead them, and then I'm the first person that comes in and does the exam. I make sure that they're comfortable with that. I use the focus game so that I can teach my dog that I can go around behind him without him having to turn and look at me.

And you want to do all this first before you bring in somebody that the dog either knows or doesn't know. So they know the components of the exercise, what it looks like, what it feels like before there's actually a stranger coming in. I like that. And I think, you know, you kind of mentioned in there making sure that you're saying kind of the verbal prompts, the dog's getting familiar with those too.

And I think that's probably pretty overlooked. I think most people don't kind of think about that aspect of things. They just think about the behavior piece and not necessarily the dog needs to be aware there's going to be conversation happening. Then the first time that does happen, of course, it takes them a little by surprise. So, yeah, and it's good to practice it. Like, I tend to do it.

I don't overdo it. But I do do it occasionally when I'm training, because what happened, the reason I do it that way, just by myself first, because many, many years ago when I was starting, you know, and I tried it and as soon as I started talking, it was like my dog lost focus. So I don't want that to happen when the judge starts talking. So if they are a little bit familiar, you know, and I can keep their focus when it's just me, then when somebody comes in, you have a much better chance of them staying connected with you. So it's, you know, it's a good thing to practice for sure.

Melissa Breau: So you're working on a webinar on the stand for us. Do you want to just talk a little bit about kind of what you're planning to include and maybe who might want to join you?

Janice Gunn: Yes, it is a webinar. I'm calling it Making a Stand, because that's exactly what it is. It's making a stand. And so I'm going to cover all the stands.

Like every single stand that we do. The stand for exam, the. The command discrimination stand, how to teach your dog to stand from a sit. How to teach your dog to stand from a down. Go get your leash. And then also the moving stand and the signal stand and utilities. So there is like a ton of content. And was getting a little bit concerned that it was going to go for too long.

But what I'm doing is, you know, teaching you from the very beginning. So my puppy is involved in the beginning process and she's showing that partial portion of it. And I have, you know, then I have seven, who is, you know, a very experienced dog. So he's showing some of it. And then I have catch, who is, like, not been in the ring yet. So you've got three different levels of dogs that are doing demos.

But, you know, the main thing is, let's teach you how to do a stand, how to do a kickback stand. So that the dog is. That's the one I'm showing anyways, is so that the dog's front feet stay in the same place and the rest of the body, the rear, kicks back so you're less apt to get any forward motion on that stand. So we're going to learn how to do that properly from the beginning, and then learning how to use some of the tools that I mentioned or what they are, what they look like, how you can use them to your advantage, but then also, you know, showing what the exercise looks like.

So showing, like a formal picture of it with a pretend judge. And then how do you teach this? So how do you actually teach the moving stand? How do you teach the dog how to stop? Same with the signal stand. And then I'm also covering, making mention of some of the things that you could be doing that will cause point deductions. So making people aware, because a lot of people aren't even aware when they do a stand for exam, that you need to leave from heel position and you need to return to heel position position.

You know, you can't back away from the dog. Like, different types of things, so that a novice competitor is aware of the things that you don't want to do and people that are already competing that don't have a really nice stop on their dog or they have forward motion on their dog, you know, like, how can we, how can we correct this so that the dog has a better chance of not getting any point deductions?

I, that's what I see more in the ring are the point deductions as opposed to like most people aren't really failing on the stands so much as the dog just doesn't want to. Like, I know there's more than one dog that I've seen that doesn't want to stop on the signal stand after the handily leaves. The dog wants to keep coming with them or they can't, they don't how to do the stop.

So all these things are discussed and looked at so that you can have the best possible stand. And the other thing is now that we've got the command discrimination, it's even more important to make sure that you've got the right kind of stand because that's a whole nother exercise that we have to do. And the stand, get your leash. That is one that is not to be taken for granted.

It looks, you know, so easy, like, oh, just stand your dog and go get your leash, you know, and you don't even have to go that far. But I will tell you, I have NQ'd on it, I think a couple times. And I have seen every top trainer around me anyways has, has also NQ'd on it. I think most people that compete a lot at one point in time their dog is going to end queue on it.

So. And the first time that that happened to me, I was like. Because I never thought like, oh, this, I thought this is easy, you know, but, but no, it's. There is a lot into it. Just having this dog stand with this person as you leave, you know, there's a lot in that. And especially as you go out the ring and they're always facing towards the exit of the ring, which is also another, you know, some dogs are like, okay, let's go.

You know, so that's at the end too. Right, right. And then you have to collect them up after you do that exercise and get them out of the ring under control. So. But what happened to me was, you know, I was a little bit lackadaisical when I gave my. I wasn't taking it seriously enough, I guess, and I lackadaisical on giving my dog his stand cue. And then he questioned it and he was like, popped up into the stand and was like, was that right?

And then went back into a sit. So, you know, and then I, I think that's the thing is either the dogs are, are going to do it or they. I've seen forward motion, and I've also seen dogs going into a sit, so. So it is an exercise that you really do have to look at seriously. And, you know, train, train for that as well. So lots of stands, like I said in our competition, obedience. Nothing quite like ending on something hard when you're in the ring. Right. Your dog's tired, you're tired.

Melissa Breau: Exactly, Exactly. Very true. Awesome. All right, so any final thoughts or maybe key points you kind of want to leave listeners with?

Janice Gunn: Well, I'm just excited to be doing this webinar. I think, you know, the input that I got from people was that it, it is something. It is a topic that people want.

And so. And when I kept seeing that, it wasn't just the stand for exam, it was like all these other stands. So that's why I decided to put it all together in one webinar. And, and this way, you know, you can get the whole thing and hopefully you guys will join me and get to learn all this great stuff.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. Fantastic. Thank you so much for taking some time to come on the podcast.

Janice Gunn: Great. Thank you. And I hope you guys all have a great rest of your winter and we'll see you next time.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with a group of presenters from the upcoming Barkie Lungi One Day conference to talk about dealing with those Barkie Lungi dogs. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available.

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to niece Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bendsound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy Audio Editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

 Credits

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!