Hear the story of what inspired Denise's popular circle method for loose leash walking, and join us for a discussion on goal setting as we head into the near year! 

 Transcription

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau, and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast, brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using one of the most current and progressive training methods. Today I have Denise Fenzi here with me to talk about the circle walking method she pioneered. Reflect back on how 2024 went and talk about the year ahead.

Hi, Denise. Welcome back to the podcast.

Denise Fenzi: Good morning.

Melissa Breau: All right, so I feel like as FDSA's founder, you don't really need a traditional introduction, so maybe start us off instead with a little about your dogs and an update on the ranch.

Denise Fenzi: All right, the dogs. I got the old man. I can't believe he's old now, but he's eleven and a half now, Brito, so he's the bed warmer.

I have Xen, who is three years old now and kind of at the point of starting his trial career. I'll have more information on that soon, so wish us all luck. And I'm actually going to go check out a couple border collie puppies next week. So I need a... I need a ranch dog because these critters are wayward. And it's a lot easier to round up wayward critters if you have a dog because they move a lot faster.

And having had a few episodes last week where animals got out and needed to be rounded up, that dog thing was looking really good. So nice young puppies, actually slightly older puppies. I'll be checking out and hopefully I'm gonna bring something home. I'm kind of excited about this. It is exciting and new dog's always an exciting thing. And this will come out on Friday, so hopefully by then we'll already.

Melissa Breau: You'll have already had a chance to announce fun stuff on social, so could be. Yes. Well, fingers crossed for you both on the competition and the puppy fronts.

Denise Fenzi: Thank you. All right, do you want to give us an update on the ranch too, or…

Melissa Breau: Oh, things are hopping. I used to be able to come up here in any time, just drive up to the building and do whatever I wanted.

And I actually have to check the schedule now. So today they have a... Yesterday was an ORT. Today is some kind of a big training. We've got barn hunt going on in the next month. I think we have four or five different events. We've got things I do like bite sports. The barn hunt. NACSW. Yeah, that's right. NASDA, which is the rat sports. Regular training classes through Marin Humane Society.

So we have a partnership with them. They're starting family dog classes taught by a really great instructor, Christine Sue Long, long time FDSA student for your run of the mill pet dogs. It's so cool. It's so cool to watch things coming together and to see people hanging out and eating and creating the community that I was kind of hoping we would end up with. So super fun.

Melissa Breau: That's awesome. So I feel like semi regularly we hear the question, when will camp be hosted at the ranch? Do you want to maybe talk about that and kind of answer it once and for all?

Denise Fenzi: Yeah. So the problem is parking. It would be really hard to because camp is big. So you end up with several hundred cars. And not just cars, you know, dog people in their SUVs and you know, big vans and RVs.

And I just. That would be, would be very difficult. So also camp requires really unique spaces. We need huge spaces and many of them. So most kind of non working lecture camps are a lot easier because you can just stuff everybody into a building. And we have a big building, we have a, you know, 8,000 square foot building. But camp requires like five spaces like that. Not that big, but of that type.

So what I think will happen and we do have a couple on the schedule, is mini camps. So we have a reactivity camp scheduled with three instructors. So we can manage that kind of a thing. And we have a few of that sort of direction, a little more manageable in size. And I think that's kind of where we'll stay. But Crystal Wing will come back out this summer. Karen Deeds, Amy Cook, Sophie Liu. So we're going to have a good time, but not big camp.

Melissa Breau: Fair enough. All right, so I mentioned in the intro, we want to talk about your circle walking webinars and we've kind of taken to running them about once a year. At this point, they are back on the calendars. The first webinar is running live in 2025. So I thought maybe we could talk a little bit about where they came from. So maybe you could first share kind of what is circle walking and then where did the idea for it come from?

Denise Fenzi: I mean, honestly, it absolutely amazes me that people keep signing up for this webinar. I'm like, it's been offered several times and yet every time we put it on the schedule, a whole bunch of new people show up. So it's like, well, okay, so apparently everyone doesn't know about it yet.

I think especially if you are a trainer, you have a challenging dog, you should absolutely add this one to your toolbox. There's not one method for every dog, so I'm not going to say it works for all dogs, but probably get more positive feedback on this webinar. There's like three or four I teach that are just super popular, and this is one of them. It basically came from several years ago.

I was out walking Raika every day on the same trail and I would see the same equestrians because we share this trail. And these are kind of these fancy high energy horses. These are training barns out on this road. And I'd be walking my old dog, who, by the way, does not pull on a leash. She was, you know, 15 or whatever. So we're just kind of meandering along and I would see these professional trainers taking these horses out of the gate of the various facilities and heading down the road.

And these were really young, lively, lively horses. So you would see all kinds of excitement sometimes on these walks, like horses really struggling. And what I noticed is one, how calm the riders were and how few straight lines they actually made. And it was really interesting to watch. So they would just go in circle after circle after circle. And if the horse picked up speed, they would circle and it was just sort of there, non stop.

Default solution. I don't know that you call it pulling in horses, but generally accelerating, so not able to stay in something that looked more or less like a walk. And they would circle them every time they struggled. And I started really paying attention to that. And it got me thinking about how we train loose leash walking with dogs. We actually go somewhere, we go for a walk. And by going for a walk, the dog is targeting things to go towards and then they pick up speed and we might stop and try to bring them back.

But the point is there's a destination, so maybe you want to go around the block. These equestrians did not seem to have a destination, or if they did, I wasn't aware of it. They were training, they were out working with the young horses. And it was notable to me how effective it was because I would observe these people and in a pretty short order, they were getting a lot further than they did the first day.

And it just made me start reflecting on whether or not we were creating our own problems by teaching dogs day one that there's a destination out there and that we're going to it. And so I grabbed Lyra, who my dogs are often off leash. They don't really have a lot of need for loose leash walking. And I put a leash on her and I took her out. And I tried it out and it was like, honest to God, it was like a miracle In a matter of minutes.

I was like, this needs to be explored because this is. It was so dramatic how quickly trying to mimic what I saw the equestrians doing was working for her. And so then I got so excited. So of course, the next day I run home and I get Burrito. I'm like, oh, we're going to try this, we're going to try this. And again, it was a bit of a miracle.

And at that time, Brito had some reactivity issues. And so I was kind of messing around thinking, well, what were the equestrians doing when their horses were spooked or whatever? And so I started applying it there. And then I made some videos. I put them on the alumni group and I was super excited. So I got people talking about it. And over the next several months, I asked people to send me videos of walking their dogs and trying it out.

And I would kind of critique the videos and say, okay, try again and can you try this? Can you try that? And I don't know how many videos I saw. It was a lot. I mean, a lot, probably hundreds. And the feedback was so overwhelmingly positive that it made a real difference for people. And in some cases it was people who had actually just stopped walking their dogs because they just couldn't.

You know, we're talking eight, nine year old dogs. They felt unsafe with their dogs. It's people who were using more powerful equipment to try to slow the dogs down. And we're saying that the equipment wasn't even helping anymore. Who then came back and said, this is. These were the best walks, like day one. These are the best walks I have had in so long that I stayed out with my dog for a really, really long time because it was actually enjoyable to be out there and to have solutions when the dog started to wind up.

And so the second thing I started to notice was how many people with reactive dogs, especially after the first webinar was offered, came back to me and said, forget the loose leash walking. This made a huge difference in my dog's reactive behavior. So then I asked for another pile of videos so that I could explore it around the issue of reactivity because I only have so many dogs, so, you know, crowdsource.

Right. And then I offered the second one on using it specifically around reactivity and triggers. And then I made the third. Third in the series, which was sort of a... It didn't work. Now, what kind of a video? They are very dense, dense videos. All of them have an incredible amount of information. For those who are wondering if you can just go to the second or third one.

No, really, you can't. The first one is the foundation you need to understand it, why I do it, where it comes from, and some basics. The second one is, all right, here's what I would do if your dog is struggling, and the third one is really having a hard time. Let's look at this again. So that's kind of where it came from, and I'm actually kind of proud of it because I think it offers options and solutions for people who really feel like they've tried everything.

And it just seems to work in a very organic sort of way, especially for really lively dogs that get more and more frustrated when you try to bring them back to the handler, or because it doesn't require food or toys. For dogs that when they get out in the world, they're so high that their handler is completely off the radar, it seems to really help get the dog back on the radar.

And for dogs that, you know, forget that cookie, I could care less. I'm way more interested in what's out there. It starts to provide solutions. And like I said earlier, nothing works for all dogs. And that's not. I don't think that's a problem. I don't see dog training as a guarantee, but it certainly helps. And in the third method, I really do talk about integrating it with other methods to improve the effectiveness for dogs that really are struggling.

So every time that it kind of comes around again and people try it, some ridiculously high percentage of people are just shocked at how quickly they kind of see improvement. Right. Like the first day or the first walk even, or whatever.

Melissa Breau: Can you talk a little bit about how long you typically see someone need to apply it before they're seeing improvement? And then a little more about kind of that. Does it work?

Denise Fenzi: For every dog question, what I tell people is if you're not seeing really significant improvement quickly, I mean, in the first week, you're either probably at a place where you need to tweak it and see if you're applying it to maximum effect or. Or it may not be the right answer for your dog, but it should be fast. And it's not something you teach in slow, small doses.

Most training, we teach a few minutes at a time. This is actually the reverse. The longer you're out, the better off you're going to be. So if you've done a week of it and your dog is the same or worse, you're on the wrong path. You either need to tweak it or you need to try something different. So that's kind of my feedback. You'll know fast. Okay, so I know that you kind of mentioned in there the reactivity and overarousal.

Melissa Breau: I know. You know, initially it was just about loose leash walking. So can. Can you dive a little more into kind of what you were seeing that made you recognize that it would be beneficial for reactivity and overaras over arousal kind of where that came in?

Denise Fenzi: Well, I noticed it with Brito, but I didn't identify it in my head. So what I mean is, I just started doing it because it was an easy solution, but I didn't think too hard about it.

What actually really made me take a hard look was after that first webinar ran, the number of people who said, forget the loose leash walking. What this did for my dog's other issues was profound. And it was the feedback that kind of made me take a second look.

Melissa Breau: Have you continued to kind of experiment with it at all? Anything you've tweaked or changed kind of sense?

Denise Fenzi: It originally kind of hit the airwaves. The basic thing is the same, so the basic ideas and methods the same. Some of the areas that I'm really thinking harder. I know I originally said, I really don't want you doing this with a head halter, because I worry about dogs hurting themselves. Since that time, my perspective has changed on that. I really feel that safety is important. And then I had people saying things like, well, I walk my dog.

Forget circle walking. I walk my dog on a harness. And now I've broken my fingers. I walk, and I'm like, okay, wait a second. I can't have people going out into the world doing things that risks them or the dog or society. Right. So that's when I got a lot more interested in learning about head halters and watching them. And now I feel that you can safely use a head halter along with the method.

And you always have the option of two lines of attachment. So you have a backup. If you start getting nervous, use it, and you can do the halter. So that would be, I think, where I have sort of softened the most as time has gone by.

Melissa Breau: All right, since you're here, I also wanted to kind of take a moment and just kind of reflect back on the year. You know, it's kind of coming to a close. We're talking on December 22, but this will air kind of the week before the New Year. It was A busy year at FDSA. Anything in particular you kind of want to reflect back on? Oh, my gosh, that's so difficult. The school has been active for 11 and a half years or something. I continue to be grateful to the students who keep showing up.

I mean, the number of people we have that we basically had since the school opened is amazing. And at the same time, the number of new young people especially. I look at the alumni list and I see so many new faces. And I really appreciate that. I really appreciate how the instructors. And I see this more and more every year. I see how they integrate the material that they've learned from each other and from outside places and brought that into new classes and new ideas, and that allows.

It almost feels like there's always something for everyone. Like the number of students who say, I wasn't going to take anything this term, but. And it was just like, but this person put a new class on the schedule. And I was like, wow, no, I've got to learn about this. And the amount I'm like, I took a workshop. Well, Sarah Brueske's workshop, it's actually on the schedule now for December.

That's running at the same time as my heeling games. And so I took her workshop because I'm struggling with arousal issues with my own young dog. And it's not really what you know or don't know, because I know the things she says, like, I know how to do these things. But I also realized as I was listening to her talk at. Through her lecture, how I've not focused on the right places at the right times and how I let things go.

I mean, I think it's really easy to do that. Right? It's like in any relationship, people, like, make sure you tell people you appreciate them, and then a month goes by and you realize you just didn't. And it was super helpful to me to get me back on track and also to get me motivated again to work on things that matter and to remember why they matter and to get back in gear.

So I'm grateful that, you know, even as, you know, a lot more in the dog world, there's always more to learn. And so that was a really nice reminder of how training goes and ups and downs and, oh, wait a second. I have these skills. Why haven't I used them? Oh, I did not outgrow them. They're not puppy skills. You can always go back to those foundation skills.

So I think I'm a little bit reflecting on that at this time. The kind of the circular nature of learning and how that keeps the students, as far as I can tell, it keeps them in the school, brings in new people, and allows me to get better at my training.

Melissa Breau: And it's crazy sometimes even if you know something, you just need to hear somebody else say it. And then you're like, oh, right, that thing. That thing I spent so much time thinking about a couple of months ago or even years ago.

Denise Fenzi: Well, you know, actually, it's funny you said that. I love the way she laid out an arousal ladder and the way she talked about it. Because I was thinking about a webinar I taught on layering arousal games. Layering games. I frankly, I just like the way she said it better.

Like, I thought it was clearer. And yeah, so I'm listening to it from a different angle and that was helpful. And it's probably why people go, well, who, which heeling class should I take? And my answer is across the board, all of them. You should take all of them. And people are like, what? And I, I'm not actually just trying to get you to sign up for classes.

If you love heeling, if you care about heeling, you should take every single heeling class we offer because you'll be like, I know that, I know that. What? Like that's, that's the way you go. Wait, what? What? What? Because somebody will say something in different words, a different way or at a different time in your development. It's the same reason why people benefit hugely by going back into their libraries and looking at classes they bought a year ago.

Because you're not the same person you were a year ago. And different things are going to stand out for you. And sometimes, like, overwhelmingly so, you'll be like, wow, this information was here all along. How did I not see that? I remember many years ago when I was first getting into training. Well, not first, but I. 30 years ago. So instead of 40 years ago. So 30 years ago, I went to a… God, I love being able to say that getting old's not all bad. I was at a three day event, obedience seminar, and many, many things were said over those three days. Well, 10 years later, I was even later, maybe 15 years later, I still had the notes from that event. And I remember the things that stood out for me, the techniques, the skills that I was learning. And then I went through the notes that were provided to us and it was nothing like what I remember.

The emphasis in all of the notes was on playing with your dog games and having a bright and happy attitude about your dog. I do not remember that? I remember techniques for heeling, techniques for training. And that was profound for me to sit down and realize that the issue wasn't what was or was not said. The issue was what I needed to hear at that time and what I could hear and how much I could absorb.

You cannot hold three days of information. You simply can't. You can hold a few ideas. And so to realize as I was reading through this, this pamphlet that we were given, it was shocking to me. And for that reason, if no other, I would strongly encourage people to go back over their old classes. When you have some time, you will almost guaranteed pick up things that you're ready for now that you weren't ready for before. So take advantage of that opportunity.

Melissa Breau: Absolutely. Since it is the New Year and New Year resolutions are a thing, do you want to maybe share a bit about how you think about setting goals for your training or anything you're excited about for 2025? So I'm a super process oriented trainer. Um, I need goals to move me forward, but I don't need goals in the sense of a, you know, April 17th is a dog show.

I know a lot of people don't really train until they have a dog show. I don't need that. I just need a goal of an exercise to train that happens to have a competition at the end of it. I feel pretty good about my dog's training right now. And so eventually the reason I go to dog shows and competitions is to see what I have. I don't have any great love for competing.

I say I am a trainer, not a competitor. I compete to test my training. But I do feel like my dog has enough of the foundation skills that it's time to start testing my training. Just tipping my water, you know, a little toes in the water and taking a look at what I have. And so I do plan hopefully early next year to see what I have. And then I'll probably not continue.

I'll probably get hard into training again. And then, then we just see. Because honestly, it's the dog event that tells you, I know this is terrible, but the reality is sometimes you just have to go to the show to find out. There are certain things that are very, very hard to duplicate. Even though we try so hard in training. Particularly difficult for me because I train alone way too much.

So I don't have that exposure to groups and fun matches. Don't have that. We don't have fun matches in my sport. So I guess my goal is to go into a trial with the right attitude which is let's see what there is to see. That's the attitude. I think I've done what I can. I think I have a well trained dog. I think I'm ready to be here and now I want to see and, and then, you know, pick a new direction and see what's, what's going to happen.

Melissa Breau: Yeah. Just to kind of level set how old is Xen then?

Denise Fenzi: He's three. Where did the time go?

Melissa Breau: Where did that time go? I feel like he was just a baby not that long ago. But also like you've put three hard years of hard work into him in terms of training before you're, before you're testing.

Denise Fenzi: That's kind of how we put in. I have put in the time on this dog and since people ask me all the time, I probably train him for 20 minutes a day.

So people ask me that because I, I think the impression is that you have to train for more than that. And I really don't. Sometimes I will, but really he is guaranteed about 15 minutes every morning and then in the evening I may or may not throw in five minutes. I spend more time with him a day than that because there's also often exercise. But, and while he's out, like running or just being a dog, I will throw in work, but I don't generally count it that way.

So if you want to know how much time it takes, if you put in 20 minutes a day, you will get there eventually. You know, you don't need to spend hours. I actually don't even know what people do when they spend hours a day. I always kind of wonder how do you spend that much time? But you can do a lot with a little, spend a lot of time just enjoying your dog.

Melissa Breau: And I think that's super important. Awesome. All right, any final thoughts or maybe key points you want to leave listeners with either about the circle walking or about the goal setting?

Denise Fenzi: I don't think so. I think we covered it. And Sunday morning I'm going to head out to a trial today and let's see what there is to see. And I'll chat with everybody soon back on social media.

Melissa Breau: Well, good luck. I'm excited for you.

Denise Fenzi: Thank you. I'll talk to you soon.

Melissa Breau: Absolutely. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast.

Denise Fenzi: Thanks, Melissa.

Melissa Breau: Thanks to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Karen Deeds to talk about multi dog households and the unexpected benefits of teaching a settle behavior. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available.

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bendsound.com the track featured here is is called Buddy. Audio Editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

 Credits

 Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!