Join us for a serious conversation on all things play! Denise and Crystal share how play impacts our relationships and our training with our dogs.

Transcript

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I have Crystal Wing and Denise Fenzi here with me to talk about play. Hi, Denise and Crystal. Welcome back to the podcast.

Denise Fenzi: Hello, ladies, how are you?

Crystal Wing: Hello, friends. Good.

Melissa Breau: All right, guys, we can jump right in. So let's just start people off by reminding them a bit about kind of who your dogs are and what you're working on with them and giving people a chance to kind of identify whose voice is whose. Crystal, do you want to go first?

Crystal Wing: Sure. My name is Crystal Wing and I have three amazing dogs. I have, my youngest is Radish.

She's my search and rescue dog. She finds cadaver. And I have Checkmate, who is my next oldest at seven. Oh my gosh. And he does protection sports kinda. He's retired. And then Yukon is my hiking buddy. Dutch shepherd at 8 years old.

Melissa Breau: Awesome.

Denise Fenzi: Okay, this is my voice. I'm Denise and I have three dogs. Ice is my youngest. He's an 11 month old border collie puppy who's working towards being my ranch dog.

Zen is three and a half years old. He's the dog I do protection sports with. And Brito is my old man. He's just the bed buddy. It's crazy to think that he's the old man because I think I've known you since he came around. Where does it go, huh? Really? Seriously?

Melissa Breau: All right, so I wanted to have you guys on to talk about play. So typically, I think when dog trainers think about play, they think about toys, right? So balls and tugs and that kind of thing. I know you both use other types of play in your training kind of regularly, so I'd love to have you talk about them. What types of play are there other than just with toys and why do you use them?

Crystal Wing: Let's go first. Oh, yeah, first because then you can talk about the personal play stuff. Yeah, you're right. Toys are just one toolbox, like one tool that we can use.

We use chase games. I think about kind of playful restraint and release type games. I like those a lot. Hide and seek, I do that a lot. I love that so much. I also do a lot of mirroring their body language. And one of my favorite things right now that I'm obsessed with is using the environment. So I'm always thinking about the environment as a playground and like, okay, I forget sometimes that I'm in my mid-40s or I guess later-40s now.

Oops. And I decided to go rolling down a hill a couple days ago with my dogs just because it's playful and fun. And that was great fun for them. I'm a little sore now, but it's just fun. Like, you just think about your environment and jumping on logs and splashing in the water. Like, those are all playful things to do. And when I think about going beyond toys, play is communication.

And that tug toy doesn't always create the engagement. It's how you're using it. And so going environment, playing with your dogs in other ways, playing with food. I can do all the same things I do with toys with food, and I love that so much. So I also have to realize that for some dogs, toys aren't the best motivator, but it's the movement, the interaction, you know, the can't catch me games. That's what gets them all fired up and ready to go. So that's my short answer.

Melissa Breau: Go ahead, Denise.

Denise Fenzi: I guess it sort of also depends how you define play. The things that come to mind when I'm actually in a training situation, tons of toys and ball games, toy games, tug games, and if I'm using food, games with the food. But even more is the way I structure the training itself.

I try to think about, how can I make this playful for this dog? What game would this dog enjoy? And then separately, I'm a pretty big advocate of personal play. So finding what engages my dog and makes them laugh and smile. Kind of like my dogs play with each other. So there's no purpose to it. It's just to have a good time. And I find that. I call that personal play.

And what I find is that when I do that with a dog, it starts to change how we interact in real life and how they look at me away from training, and then that translates to how they interact with me in training.

Melissa Breau: So you mentioned that idea of, like, how we define play, right? So let's. Let's dive a little deeper into that. I think it feels like an obvious question. We start thinking about it, right? What is play? But I think the more kind of in the weeds we get, the more wishy washy the line and the definition becomes. So, you know, where is that line between work and play when training our dogs? And how are you guys defining play these days?

Denise Fenzi: I don't try to define a line between work and play. To me, the fact that somebody can watch it and not know which one is going on.

That is the goal, especially in the early training phases, and we can talk about this later. But there can be issues if you go there for too long, too hard, because I'm sort of working through that now, but especially when I'm first developing that relationship with my dog, I want it to be impossible to tell apart.

Crystal Wing; That's all you got.

Denise Fenzi: Come on now, Crystal. I'm trying really hard to leave room for other voices, you know?

Crystal Wing: I know. I love it.

Denise Fenzi: Melissa and I and Crystal were talking. Melissa says, should we have three people on this podcast? I'm like, no, no, me and Crystal. You won't shut us up. It'll go on for hours. So now we're being, like, really concise. We're being so concise. I'm making a move for you. I appreciate you.

Crystal Wing: I'm gonna also say that play isn't just for our dogs. And I think that's kind of going back to.

I was talking about a minute ago about rolling down a goofy hill. You know, it's. It's essential for us at the other end of the leash, too. It's about being present, and I think that's key. And we can do that. Like, we get to know our dogs and kind of our dogs have types, you know? And I think people get so worried about doing play wrong. And when you start developing more of your curiosity or your confidence or your willingness even just to explore different kinds of play styles, that's going to help you get past some of that worry if you just know that you can't do it wrong.

I think that's what I keep hearing from people when I'm trying to help them understand about play. I know there's an Instagram person. She's a writer. Jen Butler is her name, and I like her stuff, but she talks about the creative process, and she talks about it being inhalation and exhalation, and you have that balance between. You can't just keep inhaling all the time. And I feel like we kind of get stuck there where we're always, you know, trying to make everything work, and.

And we need that balance where sometimes you need to exhale, and in that time, what does that look like? And so that I look at that as my play, and that's supposed to be joyful. It's this voluntary interaction. It's a feedback loop, I guess that feels good. And when you talk about the line between work and play, that's a human construct. Right? Because good training should feel like play for both of us.

Denise Fenzi: You said something there, that kind of resonates for me. So now I'm going to start interrupting you because, you know, that's how this is going. So I'm just going to warm it around. I can't count how many times when people say, how am I going to use this in work? It comes up all the time, especially around personal play. And I say, you know, that's actually not what we're doing here.

I mean, yeah, it's wonderful if you can use it, but that's not really the point. The point is what you feel and what the dog feels and what that brings to the picture. So it's a very indirect, or it can be a very indirect motivator. Now, toys are a little different, but even there, if you go in with the, yeah, but I'm not getting what I want, you're sort of missing the point.

So it's not all just about reinforcing behavior, is what you're saying. Exactly. That the activity itself has a lot of value. And as you said, for both of you. Although let me just tell you this, Crystal, you're in your 40s. That's all fine. And, well, when you're in your 50s, you will not be rolling down a hill with your dog. You will have had 10 years to learn how unwise that choice would actually be.

Crystal Wing: Oh, it was dumb, and that's okay, but it's addictive. Like, I just love doing silly things and tapping back into being a child again. You know, splashing around in the creek. Like, somebody would say, well, why are you doing that? And it is. It's for that relationship. And it's also play is exercise, too. You know, I think that's also something that it can be useful for. And I think when I talk to, like, some of my pet dog friends are like, I don't like playing because it gets my dog so over the top.

Denise Fenzi: I don't see that as something useful. And then for me, in sport world, that's when I love play because it lets me kind of tap into that higher arousal. And so now I can kind of use that because I know when I'm in competition, my dog is going to get high. So I can use my different kinds of play to be able to kind of see where they're at and then play with that idea.

And that might kind of take Denise into thinking about how she's using that now. Yeah, you want to just jump right there, huh? My personal problems. Can we talk about Denise's personal problems, Melissa? Or is that, like, going way go for it.

Melissa Breau: Go for it.

Denise Fenzi: All right, let's talk about Denise's personal problems. One of them, not all of them. So I have issues with Xen and arousal, and it's pretty dramatic.

He gets pretty high, especially in a competition environment or in a place where he knows we're going to be doing bite work or when there's a lot of stimulation in the environment and a lot going on out there. And so I like to mess around with this, that and the other. I use almost exclusively toys and training because I enjoy it. That's a huge thing. And I do it so much that I have a way of sucking the food drive out of my dogs.

And often I don't really prioritize food drive anyway when I'm selecting. And so the combination means that give me six months with a dog and there's a good chance they won't take food anymore. In a training environment, this is not a good thing. I'm just. I'm just laying it out there because this is, you know, Denise's problem. So this is Denise's therapy session. So I decided a week or two ago to try something a little different.

And I played with him with his toy at the door, and then I walked to the field without the toy. And a really interesting thing happened. I saw him behave the same way in my own training field that I see in a more trial like environment. And believe me, that is fabulous. That is the best thing that can possibly happen to you is to duplicate something that you normally only see in a trial.

And that was caused by actively leaving his toy behind. Now, I do that all the time in training, but I usually have a second toy on me and that should be fine. But for whatever reason, on this day, he was very conscious of the fact that I left the toy at the door. And that got me thinking is the problem I'm having in competition, the fact that he knows his toy is getting left on the ground outside the field.

Now, normally I'm not seeing a problem because I go on the field and then we work and I play with the second toy. But that was information. And I thought, well, I've had two dogs in the past, which for various reasons, I had to take all motivators out of training for months. No food, no toys. It's a lot of work, let me tell you. And I'm looking at this dog going, oh, my God, do we have to do this again?

But I don't know the answer. So let's find out. So I have been for the last. I think I'm on day nine, I am not using any toys and training. I am using food. I can't say if it's a motivator for him at this time or if it's just something he accepts, takes. There's a difference. You know, a motivator or a reinforcer means it increases behavior. I don't know that I would say that's the case.

I think he enjoys it as a reward, but I don't think it actually increases behavior. But I have noticed. Sorry. My cranky little old dog is being bothered by the border collie. Um, I've noticed already. After the first few days, I noticed some real lapses in attention. He's like, I want my toy. I want my toy. He's addicted to that, and there's no toy, and he knows it.

I make it really obvious, toys at the door. But around day five or six, I saw something really nice coming, and that was a much clearer head and lower arousal, which is sort of what I'm looking for. So I guess the point is, one of the disadvantages to making training incredibly fun, which is something I do a lot, is that you risk it being so fun that when it's not there in that same form, that your dog struggles.

Melissa Breau: So I'm super curious, just because you. You shared some details in there, are you still working actively on teaching new behaviors, or are you kind of at the point where when you're working him during those sessions, it's not so much about learning new things as it is more about kind of proofing or, you know, kind of trying to get things at a trial level?

Denise Fenzi: It's actually interesting you said that, because as soon as I took the toy out, I realized he had a lot more understanding of precision than I knew.

I didn't even know he understood exactly correct heel position all the time. He understands it fine. It's just that when I have a toy on me, he's constantly pushing those bounds. So the quality of his work is actually much higher. The precision element quality of his work is much higher. Who would have known that? I didn't even know he understood it that well. He does understand it. His position changes.

I've noticed that normally his front feet are not in alignment. I would say 90% of the time, one is ahead of the other. Now I would say 50% of the time, they are in alignment. That suggests that. That the one toy foot in front of the other is actually a function of getting ready to play. So he's thinking too much about reinforcement and not enough about what he's doing now.

He's thinking more about what he's doing. And oh, lo and behold, he knows how to heel without forging. As a matter of fact, he knows how to heel without touching my body. Who taught him that? Right? Like, it was like, wow. It's not that I didn't try to teach him all these things. I just have not seen them consistently unless I'm working on them. And so am I teaching him something new?

No. Am I holding the line on things that he apparently knows? Yes. And the clearer head, the more thoughtful behavior is showing me that he has more in there than I was aware of.

Crystal Wing: And that's where. If I build on that from kind of Melissa's question, maybe Radish is learning a lot of things because she's my search and rescue dog. But then I'm like, there's only. We need more things.

Like, we're just ready to do some different things. So I'm like, okay, let's do some Mondioring obedience type stuff. And so I took Laura Waudby's class, and I'm taking the other one. Yeah, I'll be in TEAM, so that'll be fun for her. And what I'm finding with her is that I do the same thing. Like Denise, I build a ton of fun. It is so much fun for both of us.

And I have to make sure that I still am having fun even when I switch to the food, because I have to keep my brain kind of in that same little, like, path. But she's also really pressure sensitive in a lot of ways, in emotional pressure and in physical pressure. And I didn't have any idea that she was so much. But what I'm finding with her is because I'm still teaching everything, I have to keep it crazy fun for her still.

And so that's where I was kind of wondering about with Denise as well, like, because he knows all this stuff and he's learned it through the fun, now he can bring in more of that precision because he has the attitude and the. And the skills for it. What happened to me is I did a functional assessment with Radish was just last week, and it was awful. I thought we knew more than we did.

But when I didn't have the reinforcement there for her, I didn't have the engagement and the skills that I thought we had. And that was such an eye opener. But I do like doing occasional functional assessments because I spend a lot of my time right now with her in teaching phase. And so it was nice to do a Little bit of a test and just say, okay, where are we?

I don't do that often. Maybe like once every couple months. But it was. It was really good information. It makes me wonder about when should I bring in more of the precision stuff and when should I be keeping all of the really high, you know, toy fun stuff for those who are less familiar with that phrase.

Melissa Breau: Do you want to just explain what a functional assessment is?

Oh, I just tried all of the mondioring obedience behaviors just to see where we were just as a.

Just to see where we are in that moment. So can you do the things yes or no, and then kind of move on? I think I got functional assessment from Robin Gruebel, since I don't know if that's like a term for everybody or not. It's just the one that pops out of my brain.

Melissa Breau: Fair enough. So it sounds like we're kind of getting into the topic of motivation, which was going to be my next question for you guys anyway, so let's just go ahead and go there.

How do you determine kind of what types of play are motivating for the dog? Does it? Does it. I don't want to say. Doesn't matter. That's not quite the right question. But how do you think about play and motivation and how they tie together and what they kind of fit into in the bigger picture of the sports we do with our dogs?

Denise Fenzi: Go ahead, Denise. I mean, I would say for my dogs, because I choose working line dogs almost always.

Toys are more motivating for my dogs or food used in a playful fashion. When I see toys, I'm being a little. Let's be more generic play. Various forms of play I find generally are more motivating. And in spite of what I just described with Xen, I'm not at all sorry that I started him the way I did. I think it's a lot easier to rein it in once you have what you want.

And with the puppy, he takes food. It does not motivate him. They're not the same. Uh, and so I can do some stuff with food, especially if he's sort of bored. But I'm using toys 90%, and I'll tell you this. The rate of learning is so much higher when you have a highly motivated dog who really wants what you have as opposed to simply taking it. So now I'm using food as a good try.

I'm glad you're here. And toys as a. You got it right. And then separately, the personal play. And I'm actually super curious to see he really likes to play. He likes to play with other dogs. He likes to play with me. I'm super curious to see if that is something that does motivate him long term, you know, so quick definition here. A reinforcer increases behavior, and a motivator is something that the dog might enjoy but doesn't necessarily increase behavior.

So I have never used personal play as a reinforcer ever. But I will use it as something that makes the dog want to play my games. And I just, I feel like I need to put that out there because it's a small difference, but it is kind of a difference, and I think it's helpful to know the difference.

Melissa Breau: Crystal, what about you? How do you think about play and motivation?

Crystal Wing: So I think different dogs are all going to value different things. And I think it's also important to note that we're kind of talking about our typical dogs, not the dogs that have, you know, a lot of special needs and things. So I think that's always good to kind of put out there because I have a lot of friends that have dogs that are, you know, they're just a little different.

You know, they're wired a little different and they're. They kind of feel pressure. And we're like, yeah, you can play with your dog. And they're like, no, my dog will never play. So there are those dogs out there, but more for our typical type dogs. Some are going to love a hard game of tug, like Checkmate. That's his thing. He wants to fight. Kind of like Xen. They just want to fight.

Some want to chase My Radish, he loves to chase. My Yukon, he loves to possess. Let him have a furball and just sit there and just hold it in his jaw. Like that's his thing. Some dogs really light up at that verbal play and kind of that goofy movement. So I like to offer choices so that I can kind of get to know what they like. Do they like me running away?

Do they like kind of being chased? I love watching dogs play because that gives me so much information to know what they like. Do they like it when I push into them kind of playfully? Some dogs are like, whoa, back off there a little bit, pal. And, you know, are they excited by unpredictable movements? So some dogs really want that prediction. I want to know exactly what you're going to do.

And other dogs are like, they go nutty when you're, like, really unpredictable. And they don't know what sound you're going to make and what movement you're going to make. But once I kind of find what gets a response, I try to build on that. And I don't assume what I find fun is going to be what's fun for the dog. Like Radish. I really wanted her to love playing with these tugs and things.

And what she really loves is chasing a chuck it ball on a rope. I'm not a ball person and I don't like having a ball dog. And I have other friends that are like, all they like to do is play with balls and so they make all their dogs a ball dog. And so I had to let her kind of find out that she wants to be a ball dog as much as I don't want it to be.

So I guess that's where I think that play is a two way street. If my dog isn't invested, it's not play, it's just me kind of entertaining myself. All right, so we talked a little bit about motivation and kind of figuring out what the dog finds motivating. Talked a lot about how it's supposed to all be fun. But do you still have rules when you play with your dog?

You know what, what kind of role do rules have in play? If rules have a role in play? So I think rules are kind of what make play sustainable. If you don't have play rules, it can get too intense, they can get frustrated, they can get too pushy, and that can kill some of our engagement. So what wasn't fun for me was that Yukon kept biting my nails and he would blacken my nail and that's going to kill my engagement real fast because that's super aversive to me.

So I need to teach him targeting. So for me, targeting can be kind of a rule. But I don't do that in the very beginning. This is after I've kind of built that relationship, that engagement. So that's, that's part of that to hear. But I think about it like sports, basketball for instance, if there weren't any rules, it's not going to be that fun to play. Like if you didn't know you're trying to shoot a basket, you know, and if you didn't know that, I mean like one person be getting fouled all the time, you know, and it would be a big old fight.

But I think that kind of goes for dog play too. So some of those rules can create clarity and that clarity can keep the play kind of enjoyable and on that level of control that we're all safe. So I think some of the rules that I'm talking about is more for safety. And so it's not to dampen the enthusiasm. It's just to harness it in a way that makes us play even better.

Melisa Breau: Go ahead.

Denise Fenzi: I think about it similarly. There's a safety function here, and it's really important. I also think that play as a contest is a thing. And as Crystal just said, if there's no rules, there's no contest. There is no play like you need to have I'm going to chase you and can you catch me? Is a form of a rule. And toy play, just straight up safety, you have to have it.

But also, if you think about it, if you do want to eventually use play in a training format, those rules eventually become the game of training. So here's a rule. If you do this thing a certain way, then we play these games. So it's that if, then statement that leads to the reinforcement. And I don't think if done well, I don't think that takes anything away from the game.

I think it enhances it. So drives in control, we say, are two sides of the same coin. The drive is the desire to play. The control is the rules around the game. And my dogs don't object to those rules at all. As long as the rules are clear and known and fun. I mean, if you have so many rules, like you got to do this thing for 18 minutes before you get anything, that's just not a fun game to play.

The rules aren't fun, but if they're done well, I think the rules absolutely enhance the game. Personal play is another place where if you watch dogs play with each other, and I watch dogs play obsessively, there are a lot of rules. We just don't realize it because we're not watching for that. So something super simple. If you watch two dogs playing with each other, they almost never face each other.

And people are like, what? And go, well, watch. Just watch your dogs. And you'll notice they're almost always side to side. There's very little frontal pressure, little things like that. Those are their rules. And one dog will say, hey, don't bite my feet, or whatever. And the other dog responds to those rules quickly. And eventually, once they have it worked out, both dogs can really get their needs met as long as both are willing to respect the rules of the other.

And I like what you said too, earlier about that. It's easier to rein it in. And I feel like that's when you bring the rules in. Like when you've started to build that and you've started to kind of figure out that, okay, now we need to add some of these rules because if we don't, then, you know, I can see where this is going to go. I think that's kind of an important point too, you brought in.

I think that's definitely worth thinking about and thinking about what it requires to keep the human player safe, as well as the. Just the kind of the game in general useful if you do want to use it in training. So I do worry about people, though, because I see them trying to force play a lot. And that's always kind of. It's tough too, like in seminars and things where I want to help somebody in the moment, but they're just not quite ready at that time.

And they're trying to force it so much. And that's where play needs to be more voluntary. And they're trying to make the dog do it and trying to make the dog love it, you know, and it's. I almost feel like I'm trying to tell my friend to eat cilantro. And for them it tastes like soap. And it's like, no, I can't do that. And so that's something too.

I think that's important about play is we need to keep in mind that it is this voluntary thing that we're trying to invite the dog and we're trying to make it irresistible. But I think that's where we have to as ourselves, we have to become a little bit looser and let go of some of the worry and find that creative side in ourselves. I think there's a lot to be said for setting a timer when you're first starting out, like literally 30 seconds and then take a break.

Dogs take breaks all the time and it kind of prevents that, damn it, we're going to play today. Sort of mentality. It's just a little bit and then see how that goes. And that's why I love the personal play too, because it's. It's just a short burst, little things, and then it's okay. Do you like a push? Do you like a pull? Do you like when I'm low?

Do you like when I'm high? What do you like? And that's what's so fun. And I think too, that goes back to that force idea. Just little experiments and maybe for people that tend to be a little bit more on the scientific side, think about as experiments and maybe that can kind of help you loosen up and be creative. I know one of the things that helped me out, I kind of mentioned it before, was I do this little, like, verb generator thing, and so it just randomly generates a couple of verbs for me online.

And then I try to see how I can use those verbs to try a different movement or do something a little bit different. And so if there's just ways to kind of tap into your creativity, and then you'll really kind of start to see what does your dog like. But what I do love is watching dogs play, like you said, and they take so many breaks, and they'll kind of shake it off, you know, and it's the same thing we have to do.

So I think we try to make it last too long, we try to push it too hard, and really, it's about being this voluntary. We both are opting in for this thing, and we're going to experiment and play and see what each other likes, and sometimes it fails, and that's okay. Yeah, I totally see how people, you know, they get very serious about play, and then. And then things kind of, you know, go sideways because they're trying to force something that doesn't feel natural, and that's the last thing you want to do.

We do inadvertently teach each other that there's a right way and a wrong way. And, you know, you go, well, the dog has to never touch your hands. And we do tend to have a lot of rules. And it's fine to have rules, but you should decide which ones work for your team. And too many rules too early on kind of ruins it. But one thing is super cool.

The first time your dog does personal play with you, you can almost see their little faces go, I didn't know you knew that. Like, I was playing with Ice the other day, and I did a play bow. He instantly played bow back, but you could almost see him going, well, hot damn. I didn't even know you knew about that. That's really cute. That is my favorite, though. When they give you that face that ever.

I hope everybody knows that face that, like, what? You know, that when I get to play with somebody else's dog and I know their dog's words, and you say the word, and the dog's like, what? That's the best ever.

Melissa Breau: So good. So what about kind of the idea of relationships, right? What. What part of. When you think about your relationship with your dog, what part of that is play?

What role does play have in that relationship? Are you, you know, thinking about play as something that has a major impact and kind of your personal relationship or your working relationship or. Or maybe both? How do we feel about relationships in play?

Denise Fenzi: So, for me, I just had this conversation online with somebody, and they were saying that the foundation for everything is relationship. And in my brain, I build that relationship through play.

And I've had a lot of people comment that they can't really tell when I'm asking for behaviors or working and when I'm playing. And it kind of just all goes together. And what I've had happen before is I was working with some law enforcement in Iowa a couple years ago, and they were saying that the dogs needed to be so trained, that they didn't need a relationship, that it was just about being crazy about the ball.

As long as they were crazy about the ball, they would do their job. And I tried to watch. I tried to see if that was true. But what I saw, and this has been time and time again, I saw that the dogs that had the relationship with the handler were the dogs that were much more reliable. And it was a more. And I don't know the best way of saying it, words are hard, but it was just this.

This moment of connection that you could see that the dog would do anything, not just for the ball, but also for the human in a way. And I don't. I don't like saying it that way. I'm struggling with words here. But there was a difference, a huge difference between the dog that was just about the ball and didn't care about the person and the dog that had that connection with the person.

It's like they were working together and that that communication was really a thing of beauty. So that was the biggest moment that I could see. Relationship being a powerful connection. I know that I get just personally, if I have toys, their food or whatever, and if I have the dog at my side and I reach down and I pet them and they like it, like you scratch the side of their head and they kind of lean on you, I have a huge reaction.

It just makes me feel really good. As opposed to when I reach down to pet the dog and they lean away because they're like, no, no, no, no. I just want my toy. No, it's not like it's bad. And if somebody's listening to this saying, oh, my God, does that mean my dog doesn't love me? It's not like that at all. It's just that when the dog will accept that at this time, we're not going to get toys, something to offer.

Maybe it's a 1 out of 10 for you versus the toy. And it's not even, in fairness, it's not even on the same number scale. It's kind of like comparing my interest in eating and my interest in playing. They're not on the same scale. They're both really things I like to do, time and place or whatever. But I do love when I'm able to just reach down and interact with my dog.

And I think when you're going into. When you're thinking about competition, where you are eventually going to be weaning off those things, having a dog who really enjoys your company, now maybe some working dogs, you never need to get rid of that. I don't know. But as a dog sports competitor, eventually your dog is going to figure out you don't have access to food and toys in competition.

And there's a lot to be said at that point to having a dog who still wants to play the game. And I've often said almost anybody can take my dogs. And if you know the words and if you know what you're doing, you can probably get them to work for you if you have the motivator, if you have something on you. But if you don't, none of my dogs will work for you.

Why would they? You don't mean anything to them. So that actually kind of just from a pragmatic point of view, does matter to me that the dog takes value in what I offer, even if it's not a reinforcer, even if it's a. I just like spending time with you because you're a fun and interesting person, independent of what you can do.

For me at this moment, I think that's just super valuable and maybe not considered enough. I know a long time ago, Denise, I don't even remember what the context was for the comment or why it kind of came up, but you made the comment somewhere about, you know, really thinking of your dog as a friend. And like, when you get a dog, you are acquiring a friend, right? And so you want to learn about their interests and what they're into and all this, it just kind of stuck with me.

And it seems kind of relevant to this. This idea, right, that we, like, need to take a little bit of an interest in how our dogs look at fun and what fun means and kind of build that relationship that way. It's just such a different way. Like, if you think about. I call them engaged pet people. An engaged pet person is not a person who has a dog.

An engaged person is a person who has a dog and truly values that dog. Their presence, their behaviors. They really like their dog, and they don't take their dog for granted. There is something to be said for how those people interact with their dog, because there's no expectation. It's not. Well, we had a good training session today, so I like you. You. It's just they really value the animal for themselves, for the animal itself.

And sometimes I think when we do dog sports, we can lose that. I don't mean completely. I just mean that we can get hyper focused on what the dog did or did not do for us on that day. And that can take away from what it is to have a dog, because it is a really amazing thing that we have in other species living in our home. And to lose sight of how incredible that really is is a loss.

It's a loss to us as people, not as dog trainers.

Melissa Breau: Thoughts, Crystal?

Crystal Wing: Yeah. The dog is just not a tool. It's just this amazing, amazing relationship and this creature that's spending all of this time with us. Like, my dogs know me better than anybody. I mean, I can. Quinn was my heart dog. And there was a moment where he was over on the love seat and I was on the other chair.

And then something fell in the kitchen and we both looked over and we looked at each other and I kind of shrugged, and he went over and checked it out and then went and laid back down and he kind of shrugged. And it just felt like such a. A human moment. And those are all built through that entire lifetime of building the relationship. And a lot of it came through getting to know him, and a lot of that came through play.

And it's always just, who is this creature? And how is this creature evolving over time? And I think I. I have a hard time sometimes even knowing who I am, you know, And I feel like they know me better than I do. And that's. That's a really powerful thing to have this other species that's so in tune to us all the time. And with Radish, man, she is always just watching me.

I'm like, all right, babe, how about, like, watch some of, you know, something else? Like, and it's not a bad problem, but it's just kind of funny sometimes, right? Just feel like she knows me so well and just so in tune to everything. And if I get any sort of emotional at all, she is over on me and, like, you know, like, just always trying to be there and helping.

And it's just an interesting thing. And what I also enjoy is that we allow each of our dogs to have their own personalities. I mean, we know kind of what they like, and they're so different. I mean, like Brito versus Xen, you know, that was so cool to get to know them being out at the ranch there for a while. And it's, it's the same with my guys.

Like I don't try to prescribe how they're going to be or who they're going to be. Like they just come as who they are and we celebrate them as that.

Melissa breau: Yeah. All right, so we're, we're rounding out our time here. So I want to give you guys kind of a chance to share maybe any final thoughts or key points, things you kind of want to leave folks with, but also maybe talk about what you've got going on or coming up that folks should be keeping an eye out for. Crystal, you want to go first?

Crystal Wing: Sure. We've got camp registration coming up April 7th. Woohoo. We get to talk all about play and I have a few sessions on that at camp so I'm looking forward to that for takeaways. I'm kind of going back to what Denise said about reward versus reinforcer. And play isn't just a reward, it is a reinforcer and it's part of the training. It's not just an extra and hopefully that's something that people are hearing.

It's not just an extra thing we do, it's this feedback loop. If your dog keeps asking for more, then you're probably doing it right. And I think too, I have to remember that or remind people too that motivation isn't just about what we think is fun, but it's really about what makes our dog just light up. And the play is this conversation. It's not just an activity. So hopefully people can hear that.

Denise Fenzi: I think I'm also teaching play at Camp. Several of us are. We just all have our own angles and thoughts on it. It's actually one of the most fun things to teach. Watching people find ways to get their dogs to light up is pretty cool. I have a workshop coming up on personal play, so that's a little bit more specific. That's just you and your dog again in terms of just fun factor.

I get to watch, you know, however many videos of generally middle aged women rolling around on the ground with a dog. I mean that's kind of a win. Seriously, like it's fun and as often as not they are hysterically laughing. So how can you not sort of smile your way through that? So you know, if people want to learn more about that, I'd love to see them in my workshop and camp.

And let's see my takeaway. I think the biggest thing is I would be bereft if I did not have access to play and training and toys. Now, it's not that you can't. I use food in a playful fashion, and that's awesome, right? You can absolutely do that. But I would struggle a lot to get the sort of intensity and love of work in my dogs. If I did not have either toys or food used in a much more engaging fashion, it would be quite a loss to me.

And so while, as I talked about Xen, how it can also cause issues if you don't know when and how to change how you want to use, doesn't change the fact that the base that I can develop in behaviors, the speed with which I can get behaviors, is through the roof if I am incorporating play in my work. So I hope everybody has at least some basic ideas for their dog on what that might look like.

Crystal Wing: I love that an easy way to build on that is just to watch your Instagram and your Facebook. I love watching how you're building Ice, and it's just amazing. So thank you for sharing so much so freely with us, Denise.

Denise Fenzi: Oh, thank you. I love to share it, and people seem interested, and that makes me happy. All right, so we ended the podcast and then we started talking afterwards and had some interesting things come up.

Melissa Breau: So, Denise, do you want to take it from there?

Denise Fenzi: Yeah. Because then we got all excited and you weren't even there to put you. The listener wasn't even there to participate. Oh, let's just do it again. But it was about the idea of a contest. So we talked about rules. And without rules, play loses a lot. But there's another thing, I think, and I don't know what science knows about this or stands on it, but I think dogs understand the idea of winning and losing and contest.

And I'll give you an example. I've actually had several dogs do variations of this theme, so I'll give you a couple of examples. One dog I had, Raika, used to throw her ball in the pool, wait for it to sink, and then jump in and fetch it so she could dive down and get it. And over time, I noticed she would move further and further into the deep end to throw her ball in.

And about 80% of the time, she would succeed and 20% she wouldn't. So she would come back up and she would, oh, my God, she looked like a worried person. Back and forth, back and forth. I don't know what I'm going to do. My ball is on the bottom. I don't know, I'm going to do it. And then she'd finally dive down, she'd get the ball, and then the next time she would do it in exactly the same place.

She'd watch the ball go all the way to the bottom, and then she would start up all over again. Oh, no. Oh, my goodness. It's at the bottom. She didn't have to do that. And so I would try to help her out by moving her down the pool to the shallower end, where she could do it easily. And she would go right back to the deep end. I think the losing was part of the game.

And another game I've seen in the pool area, I had another dog who would take their pool, their. Their ball to the very edge of a little hill. It was like a. I don't want to say a cliff. And they would push it with their nose, and then they would wait until it was just about to fall over the edge and they would snag it. So I would say, yeah, again, 80% of the time they would be fast enough, and 20% they wouldn't be fast enough, and it would go down the hill.

So they would run down the hill, no big deal, come back up, and they would do it again. So I. Observing this, I think dogs are showing us that they enjoy contests where they can lose. I think it adds a different dimension, and that's something I try to keep in my head when I'm setting up activities for the dog that I think challenge is innately interesting. I think it's the puzzle, and we want to give dogs opportunities to puzzle.

Crystal Wing: I think it was a while back that I. I think I sent you a message or something, and I had a picture of a dart board, and I was throwing darts, and I hadn't played darts in years and years and years, and I was kind of good at it and just naturally. And I'm like, oh, this is kind of a fun game. And it made me wonder if dogs did the same thing, like, if they made up some random game.

Like, you know, we're throwing darts at a board. You know what I mean? Like, how random is that? And that's when you had kind of told me that story, because I was wondering if dogs did the same thing, because, you know, I kind of think about play as being a connection. And I was talking to my friend Nancy, and I was like, if play is this connection, then why do we play by ourselves?

And she's like, well, it's connecting to yourself as well, because you're challenging yourself, and you're seeing what kind of skills you have, and it's always right on that edge. Even yesterday, my dad's dog, Nakota, he hung this. I can't even. It's like an Orbee, I think, is the name of the toy. And he hung it from the tree. That's really hard for him to grab. And so he'll jump up and he'll grab it and it swings and flies out of his mouth.

And then he almost pretends like he can't see it. And it's just him outside with a toy on a rope. I mean, there's no other person interacting. And it swings and he trips, touch it back and forth. And it's like just right at the right moment, he jumps up and grabs it again, you know, and it's like he's surprising this orbeez that's, you know, on this string again.

It's just that kind of that challenge of, can I grab it at the right moment? And. And he fails a lot. Can't get a hold of it. Bobbing for apples, I guess, upside down, inverted style. I don't know how you listen, but it's that same idea. Like we're challenging ourselves. And there's another one too, that I just saw that I was like, oh, this is so proof of it.

The ball was rolling down, and if it rolls down underneath the fence, it's gone forever. And so the dog was letting go of it. It would roll down and he would wait the very last second and then dive down the hill and grab this thing right as it went underneath the fence. And we grab it just at the last second and then that. It was like the third or fourth time it went down and went down the hill.

And he just stood there. Just so sad. The game the dog created, you know, and then he had to wait till the owner got home and. But I mean, you can see that same thing. It's like a skill thing. And there's this. And I. We do get kind of inspired by that. Problem. Skill required.

Melissa Breau: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's an interesting addition to the bigger conversation. Right? The fact that, like, games are only fun if they also involve a little bit of challenge of either, you know, challenging ourselves or, you know, challenging each other.

Denise Fenzi: And it's got to be the right amount of challenge. It can't be too hard. It's too hard to shut down. What's cool is if the dog sets their own game, you get some window into what interests them, what kind of a game might work, or if they even have that I have. Not all of my dogs do that. I've never seen Brito create a game or a challenge for himself.

So, you know, not everybody is going to feel that, but the ones who do. It's certainly worth thinking about how you might use that information. Yeah, super interesting because I would. That little miss. Yeah, that little miss is so much fun. Like, we're playing tug and like one dog, you. They can miss two or three times and they're just building up stronger and more powerful. And another dog, they miss one time and they're like, well, why would I play this game?

This game is dumb. It's too hard. We do need a high win rate kind of to opt in and to not continue to do the thing. That's true. People too, though. That's something for sure. It has to begin in love. I wonder if there's a relationship between dogs that set up games for themselves and dogs that persist more strongly when they're missing, when they're not winning.

Like, I don't know. It'd be interesting to contemplate or ask people if you have the kind of dog that sets up their own challenges. Is that the same kind of a dog who has better resilience and training when they're not winning at that moment?

Crystal Wing: I mean, about people. I would say so, wouldn't you?

Melissa Breau: Yeah, I would think so. I mean, so, you know, I do indoor rock climbing and we definitely see that at the rock climbing gym.

Right. It's basically a matter of throwing yourself at things that are either just above or just. You know what I mean? Like, you're constantly choosing your own route, constantly choosing your level of challenge, and you're pushing yourself to get better and better and better. Right. Like, it's very similar. And so there's a lot of interesting parallels there.

Crystal Wing: I think a lot of things we see in people are the same in dogs.

Think about children, like especially infant baby type, 6 to 12 months, 18 months. They spend their entire lives, like, go up a step, go down a step, go up a step. Right. They. They practice using their bodies obsessively. But what, what child didn't, when you were, you know, elementary school or whatever, practice, like, let's say handstands, right. So I wanted to learn how to do a handstand. Hours of time I spent trying to master handstands.

I think it's just sort of wired into. For sure it's wired into small humans, and I suspect it's wired into other species as well. Maybe in, in different ways, but I see this all the time. People practicing endlessly because they want to get better at something for no particular reason. It's not like I needed a handstand, but, you know, it's. I think it's in us and sure makes you wonder what's in a dog.

It does. So you think, too, like, my obsession was trees. As a kid, I loved climbing trees and seeing how I could get across them in different ways. So then when you talked about rock climbing, I got to try that a few years ago before I tore my shoulder, and that was like, I could have been obsessed with that. Just amazing. So I think that also kind of goes to the risk side of it, you know, so the ones that want to challenge themselves on the ground versus in the air, you know, so where. Where are they in that kind of paradigm, too, of how. Also with that side versus a little less risk, but still challenge.

Melissa Breau: Yeah. Yeah, I like that. I think this was a good addition to the greater conversation. I'd love to have folks, those of you who are listening to this, who are in the Alumni Group on Facebook, hop, start a conversation. And let's talk about this a little bit more, because I'm curious Denise's question about kind of if people see parallels between whether their dog creates their own games and creates their own challenges and if they're more resistant in work.

And I think that's a bigger conversation that I'd love for us to have. So I think that would be an awesome conversation. I would love to hear that. So I hope it happens. Awesome. All right, guys, let's round this out again. I'm not entirely sure how to end it since we already recorded my real ending, but. But thank you guys so much for sticking with us. And thank you, Denise and Crystal, again, and it was a great conversation.

Thank you so much, and thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast.

Music provided royalty free by BenSound.com the track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

 Credits

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!