When running an agility course full speed there's a lot your dog has to process... so how do you make handling clear for your dog? Bronagh and I talk about handling clearly and training your dog to optimize that clarity. 

 Transcription

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast, brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I have Bronagh Daly here with me to talk about agility handling. Hi, Bronagh. Welcome back to the podcast.

Bronagh Daly: Hi, thanks for having me back. Super excited to chat.

Melissa Breau: Do you want to start us off by just reminding listeners a little about you and kind of who your dogs are?

Bronagh Daly: Yes. I'm Bronagh and I am a Certified Control Unleashed Instructor. I've been doing agility since I was 16 and competing kind of since I was 16 with my family dog. So agility has evolved a lot since I was 16 years old. So I've seen a lot of different aspects of agility.

I also do a lot of behavior work around agility as well. So, like, you know, a lot of agility related feelings work too. And I currently have an older dog who's pretty much retired, who's 10, Razzle. And then I have my baby dog, Wild, who is almost eight months old. He's seven months and will be eight in a week. The perfect puppy.

Melissa Breau: Perfect boy. All right, so since we're here to talk about handling, are there different approaches to handling agility? And assuming the answer is a little bit yes, can you talk a little bit about kind of your current approach?

Bronagh Daly: Yes. So the answer is like very much yes. There are tons of different handling systems, handling approaches. I feel like you can ask, you know, tons of different people in different areas of our country, in different areas of the world, and they will tell you that they handle and ways that overlap, but also very different ways too.

So, yes, tons of different approaches. So my current approach has definitely evolved from when I first started agility or even from when I trained my previous dog to when I'm training Wild now. So I'd say my current approach is largely focusing on just trying to make things as clear as possible for dogs without having to over handle. So making handling as minimal and as clear as possible so that you don't have to, you know, call your dog off of anything or, you know, anything like that.

Like making the arm positions are really, really clear for dogs. So when I put my arm down, it means come into me. So there's zero questions of having to, you know, turn into my dog and like turn my whole body posture into them or, you know, kind of move your body around too much, which I find can be very effective for dogs because Then it keeps your motion flowing, which I find can be really important because then it's easier for them to follow when your emotion flows, and then they notice more when your emotion actually slows down as well.

And then that also goes kind of hand in hand with teaching verbals too. So I also am kind of very verbal heavy as it goes, because I personally find them really fun to train. But I also find it just makes it so much easier for the dog to understand. Particularly because us as humans are not perfect. We can't be. We can't replicate the handling perfectly every single time. So even if we are like an eatsy bit late, it's still easy for them to understand what we're asking of them.

Melissa Breau: How did you kind of land there? What kind of led you to adopt that approach? So, a few different things. One is my dog Oz, who I lost this year at six. But he, before he got all his health issues, he did a lot of agility himself.

And he really, really, really needed clarity. He was a dog who was very, very smart but very, very easily frustrated. So he really, really needed things to be clear. Otherwise we had a lot of screaming of him involved. Like he liked to just yell. If he was not fair, he might keep doing it, but he would yell at you to let you know that it was not clear enough for him.

For him. With training kind of from the basics and then going through handling, I started to realize that the way maybe I handled Razzle originally, which heavily focused a bit more on just kind of handling itself and kind of relying on what is natural for the dog to understand. And then for Oz, I kind of moved more into teaching him more verbal so that everything was very clear for him.

So when I handled something specifically like a tight turn, he also had the verbal to back it up. So he would understand exactly that I didn't want him to take the tunnel that was behind that jump, that I wanted him, you know, to turn on that jump or whatever, or I wanted him to take that backside instead of the front side of the jump. So I'd say he helped me a lot to kind of realize that it there in for me and my dogs, there is a more kind of effective way for both of us to be able to communicate on course.

Melissa Breau: Can you talk a little bit about kind of what you see as foundation skills that you know that you teach to allow for smooth handling once you kind of get to that running the course phase?

Bronagh Daly: Yes, totally. A lot of different stuff. So for instance, my puppy Wild right now, like he will not know anything about like sequencing for a very long time. Because I want him to understand what everything means on the flat first or what everything means on one like four inch jump or a jump with a jump bump first.

So that includes a lot of, you know, building a lot of value for coming into my hand. We do a lot of circling to be really emphatic of coming into my hand so that, you know, we can run full speed at a tunnel and then I can put my hand low and circle. And he knows he wasn't told to take that tunnel, so he circles instead of going in that tunnel.

Or you know, things like going out to a toy versus coming into my hand. Lots of reinforcement training skills as well. Cause I find those can be super, super important for dogs to be able to know when they're gonna access their reinforcers and when to. And then just tons of verbal training as well. So, you know, multi wraps around wings. Training to do Wild's putting in his two cents.

Training to do flip aways on the flat, you know, understanding what a backside means from a front side and then starting to do a lot of either or type stuff as well. So that there is just such a high level of clarity of how each of the things he will eventually see in coursework will be before he actually ever approaches anything that looks like a sequence. So I know you talked about this a little bit already, but you know, can you talk a little more about how you approach kind of teaching those foundation skills to your dogs?

Yeah, so I definitely like to do a ton of flat work type stuff. So a lot of handling without actually any obstacles. So you know, sending to toys understanding of when I want you to like send forward to that toy when I want you to, you know, follow my handling and maybe do a circle and then get a toy for my hand or food for my or send to a toy that's actually behind you.

Lots of things like that of just following, handling on the flat and then also doing a lot of kind of one obstacle work. So whether it's just like a single wing or working on a single jump, or potentially even like working with three obstacles, but the point of that is not to actually be sequencing. The point of it is to be showing them like what, hey, this is what it looks like.

So say you have a jump in a tunnel and then you have like two jumps kind of next to, to each other after it. And so you can show them like, hey, this is what it looks like when you know, I put my two hands together and they're really low And I'm giving you this tight turn verbal, and I want you to not take the tunnel behind that jump, and I want you to take that.

That jump instead and then come back to one of those other two jumps. And then now, hey, this is what it looks like when I want you to go take that jump into that tunnel. This is what my hand position looks like. And this is what the verbal sounds like. That, you know, that's what it looks like, you know, with the hand, with the verbal. And then, you know, after that, like, this is what it looks like when I want you to come out of the tunnel and I put my hand low and I want you to come take this jump next to me versus when I put my hand out, I want you to take the jump that's farther away from me.

So I like to do a lot of stuff along those lines so that they just don't get too many ideas of what handling looks like when they don't actually know. Because I find that young dogs, and particularly smart dogs or dogs who think it's really fun can decide that they know everything about agility really easily. And then they go, yeah, maybe you, like, did a blind cross there, but I'm pretty sure there was, like another tunnel.

So, like, I think you meant I should take that. You know, things where they're like, your front cross was like a half a second late. So, like, I'm pretty sure I'm not supposed to turn. I'm pretty sure you're wrong. So I like for dogs these days personally to not form those opinions because it's so much easier to not have to undo that and just never counter that to begin with.

So that's a big goal of mine overall as well, because Wilde, even himself, he thinks he has opinions about agility that he, like, he doesn't know. Like, just teaching him a tandem on the flat. So just bringing him into him, me and flipping him away. Like, if I'm half a second late, he will growl at me. He will do it, but he'll growl. And like, he. That was the first time he ever learned it, that he started doing that. So, like, you know, we already have enough opinions, so I like to have thoughts already.

Melissa Breau: Yeah. Is it just that they're essentially patterning, unintentional cues that you're giving, or is it actually, you know, just that you kind of set up expectations to be and so anytime you're breaking expectations, the dogs are like, hey, no?

Bronagh Daly: I think it's probably a mix. So I think there is definitely so dogs obviously are really good at reading micro gestures that we don't even know that we're doing. So when the kind of arm positions or specific things like verbals aren't as super duper clear and you start sequencing, dogs will make their own decisions about what your body positions mean, particularly if you're not thinking about your arm positions. Which is why I really like to teach specific ones because it also forces the humans to have to have specific arm positions too. So we're actually thinking about what we're doing as well.

But I would say that's a big part of it, is that they just decide, you know, like your chest laser was facing in that direction for five seconds. So that probably means I should go that way type of thing. And then I would say also, some dogs learn how to read lines. So they are like, I see a line through those two jumps to the tunnel. And so sometimes when they learn how to read lines and they're like, I get.

That's what agility is. You find lines and you take them, they just start to be like, I saw a line. And then you're like, wait, I was going to do a front cross. We were going that way. And they're like, but I saw that line and then they go down that line. So I think it's a mix of definitely a few different things, but I think those are two of the big ones.

Melissa Breau: So can you talk a little bit about kind of what that all looks like in the final picture, like how you're communicating with your dog on course, what you want, when, after you've kind of put all the skills on them? If that makes sense. Yes, no, it totally makes sense. I have a hard time answering, handling questions without like doing things with my body. So imagine. So I will do my best, but yes.

So essentially the goal is for me is to always give information as early as possible. Essentially that involves a lot, using a lot of verbals for a lot of different things. So like tight turns, backsides, threadle slices, threadle, flip aways, you know, flip aways on the flat, like all different kinds of things. So using a lot of those verbals with handling, but also kind of trying to minimize the handling to be as easy as possible and as basic as possible for them to understand.

So, you know, say you're sending to a backside on a course kind of in, I want to say the olden days, it wasn't that long ago. I'm not that old. But back in the day I used to like, you know, have to put, I would Send with, say, my right arm, and then I put my left arm up and I'd have to, like, really turn into my dog and, like, twist my body, which then slows me down.

And I'm not running as efficiently for my dog. Whereas now I'm gonna start saying my verbal. So essentially, as soon as my dog has finished the thing before. So if it's a jump, they've landed, maybe taken half in a stride. If it's a tunnel, they've appeared out of it sometimes even before, potentially, I would tell them with a tunnel or, you know, it's a contact. They're either in position or I do running contacts, so they don't stay for very long.

So they are hitting the yellow or on the ground afterwards, at that moment, I would start to say my verbal and my arm would already be up for that backside. And then I would just use the right arm. I would probably throw my right arm back to help my dog a little bit to come in through that jump. But I'm going to keep moving forwards. I'm not going to be turning into my dog.

My eyes will be looking down at the landing, which is something I still find to be important, putting your eyes where you want your dog to go. But I'm not going to be kind of maneuvering my upper body as much as I used to. I'm going to try to keep it kind of as straight as possible so my running line can be as clear as possible for my dog and I can stay in motion better for my dog as well.

Okay. So I'm just thinking through that picture a little bit, but I'm like, if that makes sense. Yes, that totally makes sense. I'm just kind of thinking through it a little bit, making sure I put all those pieces in my head. That's why I really want to show you with my motion. That's why I think I got that.

Melissa Breau: Okay, so talk to me a little bit about kind of how you bridge the gap. Right. So how do we get from those early stages where you're talking about, you know, one obstacle or two obstacles and flat work and all those pieces, to being able to run that full course with that final picture? You're talking about, are there other pieces or other training that we need to make sure we're thinking about in between those steps to make sure we kind of get to being able to apply those skills at speed at that level?

Bronagh Daly: Yes, for sure. Um, and I would say that it's very easy. I would say this is the easiest part, that it's just to like, to skip for a lot of people, because it's like, you're like, okay, I've trained, you know, the basics. I've done all the things. And then you're like, that whole handling stuff of the course is like, that looks fun. I want to do that now.

And then just kind of start doing sequences. And then that's how we often fall into the trap of accidentally, like, handling stuff we don't realize we're doing. And like, you know, the dog. The younger dogs get ideas or the greener dogs get ideas that we don't realize they're having. And then we have to undo stuff sometimes or retrain stuff sometimes. So ideally, what I really like to do and what I'm planning on doing with Wild now is taking kind of those foundational skills and making sure that those are really strong and then starting to do some either OR work.

So basically asking him questions is how I see it of like, hey, do you understand with this minimal handling what I am asking you to do? So, like, when I put my hand low and I run by a jump, like, do you run by the jump too? When I put my hand in the middle range and I say jump, do you then take the jump as we run by?

Okay, great, perfect. Do you. Now, when I am running forwards and not slowing down or anything, and I have my arm out and I ask for your backside cue, do you understand how to go find that backside independently without me helping you too much? Different questions like that. And he may say no. And then I'm like, okay, great, we don't understand that. Perfect, let's work on it. So now we do, you know, because I think that's the important thing is to ask a lot of questions of, hey, what do you understand this to mean when I do this?

And sometimes the answer is what you think it is, and sometimes the answer is not that. So that's why I think it's so important to ask them these questions a lot before you actually start sequencing. Because it's important to know that you are on the same page as your dog with what things mean before you start stringing things together. If that sense you're using the same language.

Melissa Breau: Yeah, exactly.

Bronagh Daly: So I like to do like a lot of that kind of question stuff, adding a lot of motion to that training that you've already done and making sure that the motion doesn't override other things that you've taught them and that they can have a good functional brain when they're at fuller speed as well, because that's hard. That's not easy. And making sure, you know, the jumping is pretty much non-existent.

Like we're using jump bumps or using low jumps because we're not asking them to like think really hard and also do difficult things with their body as much as, you know, actually jumping. So that I find to be super, super important and then just building up, sequencing really slowly. So a lot of wins. Because I think that's something that us as humans are really bad at is being like, I'll just do three things and reward.

We're like, I want to do all 15 though. And then we like often get in bad habits of just running until something goes wrong and then we reward. So our dog is practicing a lot of not success. And often our dogs don't necessarily know that that's the idea. Like that's the ideal that they don't actually know that something's gone wrong. But again, they're really good at reading micro gestures.

So they often do know even they're just good sports about it. But so I like to do, you know, building lots of chunk, like small chunk pieces of lots of being successful and lots of wins and lots of clarity and lots of either or so. Like, hey, this is what these three jumps strung together look like now when I want you to do something slightly different on these three jumps, that's what this looks like instead. And just lots of wins through that and then slowly adding in more and more obstacles to that but gradually not like jumping from that to like now let's run a full course.

Melissa Breau: Yeah. You mentioned you use kind of a lot of verbals. Do you want to talk a little more about that? Like what do you have on verbal cue and what are you relying on kind of your body language or visual cues for?

Bronagh Daly: Yes, totally. I actually have like mental homework I'm supposed to do which is write all of them down. So I should, I should know all of these because I want to make sure I know what I'm actually training. But yeah, so I do use a lot of verbals I am training. I have a backside on the verbal at this moment in time. I just have a single backside cue.

Some people have multiple. I just have a single one. I have a flip away on the flat verbal. I have a come into me and then flip away and take a jump in a tight turn. So like an outside like a flick type verbal. I have a tight turn verbal. I have a come into me and then flip away to a tunnel verbal. Specifically, I have a come into me verbal.

I'm like what is my mental list? I have a come into me verbal. So I come to hand. Like, come into my hand verbal. Essentially. I have a go ahead verbal as well. And I'm thinking maybe those are all of my verbals. I might have missed one or two. Those are the ones I have right now.

Melissa Breau: Anyway. How do you decide on cues for. I mean, those are a lot of different pieces. Like, are you. How do you make sure they're distinct and different and all that good stuff for. Yeah, cues.

Bronagh Daly: So I. Yeah, that's a huge thing you want to remember is that. How do you say a word when you're running fast and out of breath? Does it sound similar then? Do you say a different word when you're also. That. So, yeah. So I try to pick verbals that are really easy to enunciate for me and verbals that I find really easy to repeat because I like to repeat my verbals a lot, too, because I find that to be really helpful for the dog.

So, like, particularly for something like a backside when you're leaving, mine's out, so I would say, out, out, out, out. I can enunciate that. So that sounds really different from a different verbal, which is like, my titurn verbal is kick, kick, kick, kick, kick, kick. So that sounds really different than the other. So I just try to pick verbals that mentally make sense to me, so I remember them, but then also are easy to enunciate and easy to repeat.

That sound, you know, have consonants and vowels that sound enough different that the dog is not going to be confused. Because I've had that with students a couple of times where they say something, and I'm like, so I'm 99% sure your dog thought you meant to go straight because the way you said that verbal sounded exactly like that, even though you meant them to go to the backside.

And then we have a conversation of, oh, okay, maybe we have to change one of these words because your dog definitely just does not understand when there's, you know, a lot of stuff going on.

Melissa Breau: Okay, so does any of this shift or change when you're thinking about starting it from, like, a start line where the dog is in a static stopped position versus, like, in movement in motion? Like, just, you know, how do you kind of pull those pieces together?

Bronagh Daly: Yeah. So I would say largely, it does not change a lot. I would say it's kind of the same across the board. The one difference is that what I'm now teaching is another specific verbal, which I didn't put on my list, which is to focus on the first obstacle. So that's something that I find can be really helpful for a lot of people to avoid things like running by the first jump or, you know, you're leading way out and they're like, where are you going?

And they don't even, like, see the first jump or, you know, there's a tunnel there that looks really good and they're like looking to that tunnel behind them and they're like, I don't know, I really like that one. Those kinds of things to make that start line extra clear. So I like to use something, you know, where you can point to the first obstacle and say, focus. And then the dog knows, even as you're leaning out, that that is something that they should be looking to and that they are going to imminently take.

And then I would say body position wise, largely, the only difference is that you're probably slightly still at the beginning. And my goal on the agility course is to pretty much never be still. I used to do a lot of like stepping and going type stuff. And instead now I like to just kind of use motion. And then when you see the dog kind of saying, check, yep, got it.

Then kind of moving away, but in flow. Because I find it easier for the dogs to understand, easier for the human to not have to like, get that stepping timing perfect. And then the dog doesn't also notice that you're leaving as much. So some dogs, when you step and go, instead of kind of just moving in, they've got it and leave. They go, where are you going? And then they want to go with you. And then that pulls their commitment off. So I find kind of teaching them that that's never part of the picture can be super helpful as well.

Melissa Breau: All right, so you mentioned it's easier when you can see it, but you've got both a webinar and a class coming up so that people can see it. So let's talk about those for just a sec. Can you share a little more kind of on what each is, what you're covering in each, maybe who might want to join you?

Bronagh Daly: Yeah, I have a webinar. Was it on the 5th? Is that Thursday? Yes, it's on the 5th. That is about verbal discrimination. So kind of that in between piece. But it's where we start by using toys to work on that verbal discrimination. So instead of just kind of jumping right into doing obstacles, which can be really hard for dogs to ask them at first and be like, hey, here are these two agility verbals.

Now can you understand, which is which I like to start kind of with an intermediate step, which is with toys. So we're asking them, hey, can you understand the difference between just going to collect your reinforcement and doing this verbal versus doing the, you know, collecting your reinforcement behind you when I'm running straight towards a tunnel, or can, you know, and then I'm running straight towards a tunnel and the reinforcement's behind you, but can you now take the tunnel in front of you?

All on verbals. So it's essentially working on verbal clarity and understanding, but with reinforcers first. And then we kind of talk about how to ease them into that verbal discrimination that can be really, really useful for later down on in agility. So that's the webinar, and then the class is a lot of kind of the handling piece and building that clarity foundation for it. So I have students who are kind of varying levels.

So I have some more seasoned agility handler teams, and then I have some more kind of greener beginner handling teams. So it's a really lovely mix that we have going on, which is super fun. And it's building essentially really huge clarity on what your handling cues mean. And by handling cues, I literally mean your hands, what your arms mean, and using them very specifically and purposefully so that both you and your dog understand what your arms mean when they do something.

So we're not just like handling giraffes all day or anything like that. We're handling mice, whatever, whichever way you go. And through that, we're understanding kind of what it means when we want them to come into us and come to our hand or take a tighter turn or something like that. And then what it means for when we want them to go ahead or to go out away from us.

And then we're also going to be working on that start line, piece of that forward focus on the start line, and the focus in general on the start line as well. So essentially it's come to hand, forward focus and then focus on the start line is the too long, didn't read version. But that's basically the focus, though, is clarity, is handling clarity kind of in general, and them really understanding that we're all speaking the same language.

Melissa Breau: So for folks listening who want to grab the webinar, it will have happened the day before the podcast comes out, but it should still be available to buy if you're listening to this on Friday, Saturday or Sunday. So if you want to grab that, you should be able to go back and grab it. Awesome. All right, so any final Thoughts or maybe key points that you want to kind of leave folks with?

Bronagh Daly: Yeah. So something to think of with all of kind of like, agility foundation is also that it should be really fun for your dog. So it should be, well, ideally fun for you, too. That's why you're doing it. Ideally fun for both of you. But we really want that to be fun for our dog and we really want the clarity to be there as well. So those are kind of two goals that I think are really important to keep in mind of.

Like, why you're doing all this flat work, why you're doing all this foundation, is that you want to build that, like, drive and fun for your dog to do all the things and that they're like, yeah, let me come into you and circle.

Melissa Breau: I love that.

Bronagh Daly: Like, Wild. Sometimes will get so excited, he'll, like, bite me a little bit because he loves a circle. He's like, I love going in a circle.

It's amazing. You don't have to get them that excited, but you want, like, that real good feeling and, like, excitement and drive to do all of these verbals or coming into your hand or going far. You want the love for that as well as the clarity. So we want both sides. We don't just want, like, it to be clear and boring for them. We want the clarity, but also we want them to think it's super cool as well.

Melissa Breau: Cool. I like that. And that's a good reminder, right, that if you're not having fun doing dog sports with your dog, something's going wrong.

Bronagh Daly: If you're not having fun or your dog's not having fun, something's going wrong. It's time to reevaluate your goals 100%.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. All right, well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Bronagh. Thanks so much for having me. Absolutely. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in.

We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available today. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by BenSound.com the track featured here is called Buddy.

Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

 Credits

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!