Shaping: People either love it or hate it! Join Julie and I for a conversation on why it should be a tool in your training toolbox and how you can build your skills so you and your dog can become a talented shaping team.

 Transcription

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I have Julie Flanery here with me to talk about shaping. Hi Julie, welcome back to the podcast.

July Flanery: Hi Melissa, thanks for having me back. Super excited to chit chat about this today.

Melissa Breau: So do you want to start us off maybe with a little bit about who you are, who your current crew is?

Julie Flanery: Sure. I have been training and competing in dog sports for. This is a little scary to say, but about 30 years now. I started out like most everybody, competing in obedience and found my way to the sport of canine musical freestyle. And that is my primary sport now, along with rally free, which is a sport that takes the foundation skills of musical freestyle and sets them on a rally style course.

And it is a competitive sport being enjoyed by people all over the world now. So it's very exciting to be a part of that. I, for most of my training career, I have had a mix of different breeds. Most of them have herding tendencies, I would say, or are herding mixes. My current crew, I have Phi, who is now 6 years old, and she is an Australian shepherd Shih Tzu mix.

And then I have Will, who just turned a year old and he is a border pap. So they keep my life very, very active and my training very, very exciting. Let's say they both have very different styles of learning. And so I kind of have to keep things, it keeps things interesting for me.

Melissa Breau: All right, so let's start off with the definition. Julie, how do you define or maybe describe shaping?

Julie Flanery: So shaping is a process of teaching or training where we are reinforcing or rewarding small increments of behavior or action or movement towards an end result. So it's basically breaking down the entire behavior that we want the dog to learn and rewarding all the little pieces moving towards that end behavior. And in that way we're able to compound our reward history for each little piece of behavior that results in that larger behavior.

Melissa Breau: So when training, how often are you kind of relying just on the definition as you described it, versus like other techniques, Right. Like some luring or some prompting or some tools like a platform or kind of some of that stuff. How do you integrate those things?

Julie Flanery: Yeah, so I think that people think of shaping as a singular method that if you're shaping, you're not doing any of those other things.

And while in some cases, yes, maybe you are only using shaping. Maybe you are only observing the dog's actions and marking and rewarding the actions along that path, that line towards the end result. But you can also use shaping and other methods in conjunction with each other. So, for example, if you're using luring, oftentimes we use luring in a way that creates the entire behavior, but you don't have to do it that way.

You can actually lure smaller increments of a behavior rewarding along that path so that there is actually more reinforcement being provided in that session. Targeting is another example. Oftentimes we use targeting to teach a behavior, and we can actually use shaping in conjunction with our targets. We can shape towards the target, again, compounding the reward history for that particular behavior. Props. If we're using props, oftentimes we're using shaping in conjunction with our props.

We're not waiting for the dog to interact entirely with that prop, but we can mark and reward those increments that take us along that path toward the end. Interaction with the prop that then the prop can sometimes take over from that place. So it's not really an all, all or one necessarily. I think most people are using shaping in their training sessions much more frequently than they think they do.

They may not be using shaping on its own, where we are simply observing behavior and marking that observed behavior without any other prompting or luring or props or targeting something that's often referred to, though it's a little bit of a misnomer, as free shaping or shaping without any other prompts. Free shaping is actually a term that Deb Jones coined many, many years ago, probably 25, 30 years ago, that she mean to mean free shaping, as in do whatever you want.

I may not always mark the same thing. It was more of a creativity exercise. And I think most trainers now refer to free shaping as shaping without the aid of any other prop or prompts.

Melissa Breau: Do you have, you know, for people who are listening to this and maybe not super familiar with shaping or they haven't done a lot of shaping, do you have kind of favorite behaviors that it's, you know, easy. Easy. Ish. Easier?

Julie Flanery: Well, for those teams, I'll tell you a secret. Once you understand shaping and learn how to use shaping, they're all easy. But you're right, there are some behaviors that are better to start with for beginners. Often those behaviors involve a focal point, a prop for the dog to interact with. Shaping, oftentimes it involves not oftentimes, it always involves movement, generally movement from A to B with Some part of the dog's body.

And if that movement, if that part b, that end result is interacting with a prop that gives the handler a visual, I guess, from the starting point to the prop so that they can better visualize those small increments. So things like going around a cone or getting on a platform or getting inside of a box, those types of behaviors are often easiest for a handler that is new to shaping to be successful with and for their dog to be successful with.

I think it also focuses the dog on the prop as well so that they're right away way keyed into interacting with something out there. I like the box exercise. I use the laundry basket, but you know, same idea, anything the dog gets into.

Melissa Breau: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think the most common thing we hear about shaping, like across the board. Right. Is that people have trouble breaking things down. We hear all the time, don't be a lumper. If somebody's just kind of stuck, they don't know how to break things down further. Do you have advice or thoughts and you know, tips, tricks, any of that for kind of how to find more splits?

Julie Flanery: Yeah, and I do think that is one of the areas that people struggle with. We are really good at picturing entire behaviors. We aren't very good at breaking that down into smaller pieces of behavior.

And really what they are, they're just measurements of a behavior. So if you think of a ruler, you have a one foot ruler and you have 12 inches in that ruler. We look at the ruler and we think one foot. And what we really want to do is break that down into the 12 inches. So maybe having a visual in your mind of your ruler, your starting point is 1 inch, your ending point is 12 inches.

And you're trying to observe all of those little pieces along the way. Remember, shaping involves movement. And so from point A to point b, or.1 inch to 12 inch, there is a lot happening in between there. And because we have a tendency to focus on the end result, we can find it very difficult to observe those little bits of movement in between. But here's the thing. Observation is a skill and it's a skill that can be honed.

So for example, if I, if you. Let's say you wanted to get a new car and you decided you're going to get a Toyota RAV4 and suddenly you start seeing Toyota RAV4s on the highway everywhere. Because that is where your focus is. It's on top of mind. And so you're seeing it everywhere. You look the other way that you can that can help a handler to observe those smaller increments is to set up a visual aid for the handler.

So, for example, if we want the dog to again, I'll use move from point A to point B. Maybe you're shaping to a target. Maybe you're shaping around a cone to a platform. And you are as again, a tendency to wait too long to mark. To create too big of increments of behavior. We can set up visual cues for the handler to define their next criteria, their next point along that path to mark.

You can use. Oftentimes I might use a piece of tape on the floor, 10 pieces of tape on the floor. If I want my dog to move to a specific area, let's say moving to a mat, I can place five pieces of tape between the dog and the mat, and that gives me a visual of where I'm going to mark my dog's movement along the path to the end.

Behavior. Heeling. For example, I can shape heel position by placing a piece of tape alongside of me and maybe a larger piece of tape on the outside of me. And I can set my criteria based on where the tape is in relation to me. For example, I'm going to mark when my dog has one foot inside the tape line. I'm going to mark when my dog has two feet inside the tape line.

I'm going to next mark when my dog has three feet inside the tape line. So I'm not really guessing at or I'm not thinking or trying to discern on the fly. Ooh, where should I be marking? Ooh, should I do that next? Where should I. Ooh, is he moving too fast? Oh, is he moving too slow? I don't have to take anything into consideration other than my dog's foot placement, whether it's inside or outside that taped mark, that taped area that I have marked.

So that can help some handlers as well. But again, I think that those observation skills come much more quickly than people think they will once they start applying shaping more frequently. It's like any skill. The more you do it, the better you get at it. And I think that's true for our dogs, too. The more they do it, the better they get it, because I think they start to understand that process as well and can work towards that end result.

Melissa Breau: You brought a couple things in there that I that kind of jumped out at me, so I'm going to just kind of talk through them for a second, if that's okay. You talked about, like, with your ruler analogy, like, knowing your starting point. And I think a lot of the times people don't think about when they're working on a shaping plan where they're actually starting from where the dog's gonna be, what position.

The dog's just like all of those pieces. And I think, you know, just kind of call out you. You kind of breezed by it. But I think it's like an important thing to, you know, think about when you're trying to. You're looking at your starting behavior and your end behavior and finding those in between points. And if you haven't defined your starting behavior, you're gonna have a really hard time figuring out what those in between points are.

Julie Flanery: Right. I think that's absolutely true. So for. I think that people think of a starting point as. I'll give an example. Set up and heel, or sit next to me, or be on your mat first. And in reality, the starting point is wherever the dog is at the moment when you have your clicker in your hand. So, for example, if I'm going to shape a behavior, oftentimes I will be in a specific posture.

Not a straight, stand up straight, stand in heel type of posture, but a very relaxed posture that indicates to my dog you can offer. And often it's my first click that tells the dog, oh, we are now shaping. And reward is available if I move and do things. So the dog doesn't have to be in a specific location, either in relation to you or in relation to a mat or a prop or anything like that.

Start where the dog is at. If the dog is moving, you have something to click. Oftentimes I get the question, what do you do if a dog won't move? Or what do you do if a dog moves too much? The answer to both of those questions is really the same click. Because the click number one slows the dog down. It stops movement. So if you have a dog that's moving too much and you're like, oh, my God, what do I click?

I can't. It's just they're moving all the time. I don't know if I'm clicking the right thing. Don't worry about that. In your first couple of clicks, just click any movement because that will stop the dog and they will then collect reward. That gives you a moment in time. That gives the dog a pause, and you can now have a better view of what the dog is actually doing and what your next click point is going to be.

The other thing, if the dog isn't moving at all, you can toss a treat that often Jump starts movement. And remember, I said click any movement because that is what we want the dog to be thinking about. Move. And that will often jumpstart the process so that when they move back to you or move back to the prop, you have a starting point there to build from. Did that answer your question?

I'm trying to think now. Oh, your question was about the starting point. Where do they actually start? And they start anywhere. The moment you decide I am starting a shaping session, your first click starts the process, no matter where the dog is at. So obviously, like, no matter how much we, like, try to plan things out and break it all down in our head and write out a plan, we're working with another living being.

Melissa Breau: So sometimes we get the totally unexpected right first. Do you ever just totally change what you're working on because your dog just offered you something else that you'd also like to work with? Is it okay to do that?

Julie Flanery: I try not to do that because one of the tenants of shaping is consistent information going to the dog. And remember, in shaping, we are working along a path to get a dog to an end result.

And if during that session, we suddenly start changing the rules. Let me reverse that a little bit. Every time we're shaping, we're in effect, changing the rule of what we want the dog to offer. We're changing the criteria each time or every few times, we click. And dogs get very good at understanding that. However, if we suddenly change the overall picture, the big picture of what we are marking and rewarding, we've been marking, let's say I've been marking my dog.

Moving to the cone, moving to the cone, moving to the cone. Suddenly my dog spins, and I mark that. So now the dog's like, oh, well, I don't know what's going on here, because I was moving to the cone, moving to the cone, moving to the cone, and suddenly I gotta be in my bonnet, and I turned my head, and then. And now she's marking that. Well, what is it that I'm.

What am I supposed to be offering? What am I working on? So I try not to do that. I will often, though, maybe quickly end the session, finish up a couple of more reps. If I really, really want to work on what my dog just did or offered in the middle of a session that had nothing to do with what I was marking and rewarding, I will try to end the session, and then I will try to set up that same behavior again or restart an entirely new session where that is my end goal.

So when you say restart a new session. Do you mean like take a short break and then do it again? Or do you mean like, what are you seeing as a this session is finished, the next session is starting? Yeah. I would give my dog their all done cue that says we're done with that session. I would go take a break because I'm going to want to think about how am I going to get that particular behavior again, what is my plan for shaping that behavior?

So I'm not going to go straight from I'm shaping behavior a, oh, look, I want to shape something new. Let's take a two minute break and then shape something new. Because in general, I'm going to need a little bit of time to kind of figure out how to either prompt that to get it started or what are my first starting clicks to convey to the dog. This is what we're working on now.

So it's generally more than just a few minutes. Usually I'm just going to take a much longer break, maybe work some maintenance behaviors with my dog, take a few minutes to kind of plan out how am I going to actually draw that behavior or the starting bits of that behavior out of the dog so that I can now work on that particular skill. But I generally try not to interrupt a shaping session that is moving along a path and suddenly take a sharp turn and move into something else.Because I think that sharp turn can be very jarring to our dogs.

Melissa Breau: I will say that is how I ended up with Levi's chin rest on the ground turning into a sneeze cue. So you know what it's worth.

So, okay, so what do you, how do you handle it in the moment if you don't want to stop change, you know, take the break, figure out something new. If you know your dog is suddenly offering you something? Well, that's not what I wanted. They do the spin instead of the cone. How do you kind of try and get things back on track?

Julie Flanery: Oh, wow, what a great question. Because that does actually happen quite a bit. Especially with people that are new to shaping or inexperienced with shaping. They haven't quite gotten the skill of breaking things down fine enough that what the dog offers next is a logical choice for the dog.

So the best thing, what I do, I release the dog from that rep with my release cue. Okay. That's a general release cue that. I mean, there's. That rep is over. There's no reinforcement for that particular thing. And I can either just take a break from there to kind of collect my thoughts, or I can toss a treat, and then mark the dog's move forward movement again, then that will often help get them back on track again.

So either way, our tendency is to freeze and to stop. And I would rather you just toss a treat, release the dog, toss the treat rather than freeze or stop. Because remember that the dog looks to us for information. Most of that information and shaping is going to be from our marker. But our dog does take into account our, I don't know, our demeanor, our emotional state, our responses to their response.

And so in order to keep the dog's confidence up, don't freeze, Just release and toss a treat and move on from there. And if you really need to release, toss a treat and end the session so that you can figure out how to set up your next session.

Melissa Breau: So you are offering your class on shaping at FDSA in December. So talk to me a little bit about the class. Tell me, you know, kind of what you're going to cover, who might want to join you, all the good stuff.

Julie Flanery: Yeah, it's one of my favorite classes to teach because we get so much behavior out of the dogs. And it's. I think that a lot of the students that take the class are pretty surprised at how good their dogs are at shaping. I think that it's best for people that have some experience with shaping.

They know what it is. This isn't a brand new starter class. I know nothing about shaping. Teach me exactly what to do every moment of every second of every session. It's not quite that type of a class, but if you have shaped your dog, if you understand the concept of shaping, if you have ever shaped your dog to do anything, even if it wasn't successful, then this class is for you.

It's for people that want to build their skill in shaping, for people that want to use shaping more in their training. To me, I think shaping behaviors builds the most understood and robust behaviors in our dog's repertoire. I think it creates far more robust behaviors than luring, because the dog is initiating the process. The dog is initiating the behavior, he's initiating the movement. He has control over the reinforcement based on what he offers.

And all of that helps to internalize the behavior and strengthen the behavior. Shaping provides compounded reinforcement history. So that means that the history for that, the reward history for that behavior is far stronger than if we were just luring a behavior, getting an entire behavior for a single reward, or a few pieces of treatment. So anybody who wants to get more out of their shaping sessions to be able to learn to observe in a way that will create more successful shaping sessions and less frustration.

One of the reasons that people stop shaping behaviors is because either they or their dog start to get frustrated. And that is due to a lack of skill. Skill can be built. So that's where this class comes in handy, where we're going to help you build those skills so that you can build a strong repertoire of behaviors and you can eliminate any frustration that you or your dog may have when using shaping as a training method.

Melissa Breau: I think from previous, previous times it's run, you've had some students teach some pretty cool behaviors or end tricks or kind of some fun stuff, haven't you?

Julie Flanery: Oh my goodness, yes. It's a very, how do I put this? It's not a self directed class, but it is in certain ways. So you're. You encourage creativity. I do encourage creativity. And though I'll give you a framework from which to start.

So, for example, one week's exercises might be that you're shaping something that is either over, under, around or through. But you get to pick the behavior of, you know, what that all entails. Could be any one of those. Shaping around something, I don't know, shape under something. What you shape under, what you shape through is totally up to you. So it does give the handler a little bit of leeway and freedom to work on something that would be fun for them and fun for the dogs and something that they've never really worked on before.

And then we also take a look at some of the behaviors that we shape and see how can we apply those to our sport or what we actively train our dog in, or what are the activities that I do with my dog where I can actually use this particular behavior that I'm shaping now that it's going to strengthen some area of my current training or my sport training.

Melissa Breau: Any final thoughts or maybe key points that you kind of want to leave folks with?

Julie Flanery: Yeah. Just because you don't know how to shape now or that you're not good at shaping now, doesn't mean that you and your dog can't be brilliant shapers. Like anything else, it's a skill and if we don't practice it, we will never get better at it. And it's one of those skills, I think that every dog and handler should learn because it teaches us how to do two things.

One, provide information to our dogs and to take information back from our dogs. Our dog tells us through the entire shaping process what they understand. What is it? Are we conveying the information to our dog that we think we're conveying, shaping allows us to objectively observe that are we being a good communicator and we can then also be a good observer of what our dog is telling us in terms of what they understand.

So yeah, but I think that's the biggest thing is just because you're not good at it now doesn't mean that you and your dog can't be great at it. It's a skill like any other that needs to be practiced.

Melissa Breau: I like that. Thank you so much, Julie. I appreciate having you on the podcast.

Julie Flanery: Yup, thanks for having me, Melissa. It was really fun this morning. Always. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in.

We'll be back next week with Nancy Little to talk about getting rewards off your body and the other skills that you need to be ready to compete. If you haven't already, subscribe to the podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy.

Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by BenSound.com the track featured here is called Buddy. Audio Editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

 Credits

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!