If you've ever struggled to convey to your dog that you want them to keep doing a thing... Whether it's a stationary behavior or a moving one, this episode is for you. Kamal and I break down why he teaches duration as a concept and what it means to approach training duration that way!
Transcription
Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog sports podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I have Kamal Fernandez here with me to talk about concepts of duration. Hi Kamal, welcome back to the podcast.
Kamal Fernandez: Thank you for having me. Thank you for asking me to do this. It's always fun to catch up with you guys. I look forward to this conversation.
Melissa Breau: Fun to catch up with you too. To start us all off, do you want to just remind listeners a little bit about kind of you and your current canine group?
Kamal Fernandez: Yeah. So I am a professional dog sports coach and a dog behaviour specialist. I really focus in on dogs with reactivity challenges. That's my, my real passion project to speak.
I work extensively with all ranges of dog training challenges. I've partaken in various dog sports, primarily obedience, but I've also done agility working trials. I've dabbled in IGP at very preliminary level and done other dog sports activities and coached people to elite level of dog sports. And I've also been fortunate to compete at that level myself. But my real interest is helping people get the best out of their dogs, whatever they may be, whether it's a Chihuahua or an Irish Wolfhound.
That really is my passion, really helping people get to their goals and achieve their dreams and ambitions. So, yeah, I'm very lucky. I have quite a few dogs now. I have 13. Really carelessly. I keep on acquiring dogs as you do of a mixture of breeds of dogs, border collies, malinois, giant schnauzer, several crossbreeds, a german spitz, a real eclectic mix. So yes, I have a lot of dogs. I clearly love them a lot.
Melissa Breau: Hey, as long as they're well loved, right? That's the important part. Absolutely. So, as I mentioned in the intro, we're gonna talk about concepts of duration. So what do we mean by the concept of duration? And then kind of how is teaching the concept of duration different? Or maybe is it from teaching just a stay?
Kamal Fernandez: Yeah, if we look at dog training in, I suppose, the timeline of training, we used to view a dog doing a duration behavior as the dog would be physically still. And actually, when you look at it, there's numerous behaviors in dog sports and in life that actually require the dog to sustain a behavior or maintain a behaviour that actually the dog must not be still. So a classic, easy example to draw your attention to would be healing or heel work where your dog must maintain a behavior with criteria for a period of time. What I found was that you could teach a dog to be still and be attentive to you.
But when you added motion, that explanation broke down. So it was finding a way to explain to my dogs and my students' dogs, that duration isn't just about being physically still. It's about maintaining the criteria or maintaining the behavior, whatever that might be. So in some situations, the dog might be static and stationary. And I'm asking them to maintain that behavior. In other instances, the dog might be in motion, and I want them to maintain that behavior that they are doing whilst in motion.
So rather than teaching it as a stay where the dog must remain in situ, I teach it now as a concept which can then be generalized to various skills. So it's like I'm cheating the system. Whereas conventionally, I would have to teach my dog to, say, in, for example, sit. And then I would teach them to do a moving hand touch as a prerequisite for heel work. And those two things would be completely different to my dog.
And therefore, the timeline it would take to achieve both at proficient or excellent level would be quite protractive. Because, you know, teaching a dog to stay in one place is actually quite a hard thing to explain to a dog. Similarly, teaching a dog a moving hand touch is actually quite a complex skill. So imagine if I could cheat the system where I can actually explain to my dog that the same rule applies to both those behaviors.
Once I've got a very early or infant version of both those behaviors, I can cheat the system. So it means that I can use that understanding and those signals to say to my dog, you are correct. Maintain that behavior irrespective of whether the dog is static or whether it's emotion.
Melissa Breau: I love that. So where do you kind of start? Do you pick one behavior to work out? Like, how do you begin all of that?
Kamal Fernandez: So it's really about, rather than teaching the dog a specific cue, you're teaching the dog. The way which I explain to people is rather than teaching a specific cue, you're teaching a dog a language or a communication process. So my communication process, for duration or for remaining doing something, is taught in the context of behaviors that my dogs are shaped to do initially. So, simply, it would be getting on a platform, something really, really basic.
And I would introduce the dog to the concept of a duration signal. That signal can be a verbal signal. Sorry, a verbal cue. It can be a physical cue, or it could be a mechanical skill. And the reason why I want those three things is because I can use those three things in different situations, depending on the proximity the dog is to my body or the specific behavior that is, the dog has to be miles away from me, or whether the dog's close by or if the dog is out of sight, and so forth, and so forth.
So I start the concept of teaching my dog those duration signals in on something that's very, very simple for them to achieve and learn. So getting on a platform, obviously, we're doing this with a tiny puppy. It's really easy for that puppy to be successful because the margin of error is going to be small because the platform is so large, and the dog can achieve that really quickly.
And I can start to introduce those concepts very, very early when it comes to teaching the dog or transferring that skill to a moving behavior. I can use the explanation, I can use the language I've used to explain to them. I like what you're doing. Keep doing it. I can use that and apply that to motion behaviors very, very easily because there hasn't been a strict, sorry, there hasn't been a punisher that's been used.
My dog isn't being punished and therefore fearful of coming off the platform. The dog has just been reinforced for the correct response, so that dog is more likely to offer that behavior. In the past, when we taught our dogs to do stays, when I came off the arc a million years ago, we would, when the dog made a mistake, that is move, we would use a punisher, whether it be a verbal or physical correction, so the dog would become inhibited to move.
Whereas when how I train now using reinforcement as the primary explanation process, when I asked my dog to move, and I use the same language, that is my duration signals, the dog then isn't inhibited to move because it hasn't ever been told it can't move. It's been told, I really like it when you maintain the behavior so that it sounds a bit complicated, but that nuance absolutely helps a dog understand to offer something in order to receive reinforcement as opposed to being fearful of doing something that might be punished.
Melissa Breau: Can you talk just a little bit more about any differences, if there are any differences when you're using this approach, between moving behaviors like your heel work or your moving hand touch and those stationary behaviors?
Kamal Fernandez: So when I do my. When I, sorry. When I use my duration markers in movement, I obviously start initially with just short periods of movement, so only one or two steps. And if I've done my proprietary stages correctly, the dog should generalize. Hopefully that information relatively quickly.
Now, I can also use behaviors, for example, like a trick like a leg weave, and I can use it in that term. So I would do all those different versions of explaining the dog that I want them to maintain the movement before I taught them a specific skill like heel work or whatever the case may be. So my thinking behind that is I want the dog to learn the concept of duration and understand the communication and the language that I'm using to explain to them.
I want them to maintain the behavior. I can do that on behaviors that I'm not particularly, that are not of significance to me, that is a little late trick like a leg weave or, I don't know, circle around my body, for example. So those behaviors aren't ones that I necessarily would ever use in competition for the things that I train my dogs to do. So if the dog gets confused or makes some errors, I'm going to explain it thoroughly on those.
So when I come to doing a specific skill, like a moving hand touch, my dog then understands the concept and then hopefully will generalize it really, really quickly. So then that minimizes the margin error. That means that the behaviors that I'm training that are sports specific are going to have a much healthier emotional, conditioned emotional response attached to them. The dog is not going to be apprehensive, that, oh, I'm going to get it wrong and I'm not going to be reinforced or etc.
So the way the dog is going to feel about heel work is going to be less laden with any fallout that lack of reinforcement could bring. Okay, so I feel like whenever we're talking about anything duration based, right. I've seen a lot of conflicting advice about kind of the where the, when the how to reinforce those behaviors, you know, reward, bring the reward to the dog, use the reward to get the dog out of position, like all those types of things.
Melissa Breau: So how do you choose kind of what reinforcement strategies you want to use when you're teaching a duration based behavior?
Kamal Fernandez: So again, I suppose it's a bit of a chicken and the egg if the dog understands the duration markers correctly. And I have a, as I said, I have a verbal duration marker. I have a physical signal that I show my dogs. And I also have a mechanical skill that I do in the way in which I deliver my reinforcement that explains the dog.
You're correct. Maintain that behavior. I can decide which one is most appropriate based on what I want the end behaviour to be for that specific dog or that sport, etcetera. So if the behavior is one where, for example, I'll use an example. So in one of the sports that I train my dogs to do, they have to do a go out, but the go out could be, you know, several hundred meters.
Okay, so I could use if, and the dog has to effectively run to a given location and remain there until recalled. So in that instance, it's impractical for me to go up and physically feed the dog because if I was to walk 200 meters again, that would take duration. I want to say to my dog, you're correct, stay there at the boundary so I can use my physical signal, which for me would be an open palm, and I can then click the dog for that behavior and allow the dog to come to me and reward the dog.
Now if previously I had used an alternative where I just used a generic click, for example, the dog gets the boundary, I wait several seconds, I click the dog, I reward the dog. What will probably happen is the dog will start to preempt that the reinforcements back with me without that intermediary piece of information. That is, you're correct, remaining location and you're being clicked for duration. What would probably happen by just clicking the dog without that specific duration signal is the dog would start to get sticky at the boundary because it's anticipating coming back.
And obviously the click has a lot of history of reinforcement, so that would more than likely erode the dog's end behavior of remaining at the boundary and maintaining duration. So what that just that simple little intermediary piece of information that I give to my dog, that it's actually duration that I'm now rewarding, helps reduce the margin of error and therefore fall out and the behaviour being weakened. So I would decide beforehand, depending on what I want the end behavior to look like, and that might be dictated by my own personal choice or the rules of the sport.
And then I would decide which marker would be most appropriate. So if the dog was out of sight, there's no point using a visual cue because they're not going to be able to see it. I can use my verbal signal if the dog is in earshot. Alternatively, I can use my physical going back and feeding the dog in position to communicate to the dog.
Melissa Breau: Yes, I like that.
Kamal Fernandez: Maintain that I'm going to come to you and feed you in position. So again, it would be dictated by what is the behavior that I'm training is there influenced by the sport and the rules that the behavior is used in, and that would dictate which reinforcement strategy or duration marker I would use.
Melissa Breau: When you say your verbal cue. Are you using just like a verbal cue, like stay? Or is it a verbal that you kind of repeat continuously the way you would do an open hand?
Kamal Fernandez: No. So my marker word, I won't say it because one of my dogs is with me, but my marker to say to my dog, you're correct, reinforcement is coming to you and therefore sustain the behavior. So that's my word. So if I say that my dog understands the reward is going to come to you in position or kind of come to you in location, whether it be that you're moving.
So I can use that in heeling, I can say that marker word and the dog can, well, I can feed the dog in position. The dog can then eat the treat in position. It may obviously to ingest, it might drop out position, but the dog should immediately offer that position again to, to wait for me to repeat that marker. So in that situation I can use a marker word because the dog is, well, in two situations.
One is if I want to build, I don't want to introduce a physical cue because that could be a picture that I'm not allowed to you in competition. That is, put my hand up and I might be in the process of fading my additional cues to my dog with a higher level of competition. So, for example, when I'm transitioning to removing any verbal praise, etc. For my dogs and I want to build duration, I can use that duration marker to say, yes, you're correct, keep doing that behavior, keep offering that response and you're going to get reinforcement and it is on its way, as it were.
So that allows me to then use that same communication in another context. For example, as I said, if I send my dog to a boundary, you know, several hundred meters away, I can say that marker, I can go to the dog in location and the dog understands that that marker or that, sorry, that verbal reinforcement signal has been consistently conditioned to mean I'm coming to you with reinforcement or so remain in situ or remain in that position and so forth.
Melissa Breau: Awesome. So why do, you know, some teams seem to struggle so much with duration behaviors? You know, is it just that maybe they come more naturally to some dogs than other dogs or is it more, you know, misunderstanding or maybe misassumptions when it comes to kind of training these skills?
Kamal Fernandez: I would say it could be all the above. You might have a dog with a temperament. That means that it's a more environmentally sensitive.
So you have to do more proprietary work with that dog before you start teaching the dog to remain in position, etc. Or, you know, even a dog that lacks focus or a dog, for example, a lot of garden breeds, they struggle with attention and focusing on their owner per se because they want to take in the environment. So those dogs, you'd have to put additional training in to ensure that they are comfortable in the environment, etc. Before you actually introduce the concept of duration and sustaining attention and so forth and so forth.
So it really is down to their trainer understanding the dog and what the dog needs to and where its strengths and weaknesses are, and also as a trainer, being consistent with what you're asking of them, the nuances of when you feed your dog in position, what does the dog do? Does it move its foot? Does it lift its bum? Does it shift its weight forward? Does the dog, you know, lunge for the food, etcetera?
For me, that is all the details that ultimately help the dog have clarity or erode the dog's understanding. So for those teams who maybe they're working on this stuff and they manage to, you know, achieve some good duration at home or, you know, in those low distraction environments, but where the behaviors tend to, like, just fall apart when they're in a more exciting place
Melissa Breau: Can you talk a little bit about how you build fluency for these behaviors that they can kind of hold up under those exciting spots?
Kamal Fernandez: Yeah, absolutely. It is just about stays or staying or remaining or duration behaviors are actually, they're so difficult for a lot of dogs because especially know for reinforcement based dog trainings, because we love to reward our dogs. And I would say it's not. I wouldn't say that's purely anecdotal, to say that people they like to reward have issues with duration. In fact, I wouldn't say that's there's any correlation per se.
What I would say, though, is that it is very much about the trainer pushing themselves out of their comfort zone to not have to reward their dog for two or 3 seconds of engagement, two or 3 seconds of work, and be willing to push the dog beyond that threshold and to build the dog's confidence. What happens when you ask for duration is that there is often a weakening in the dog's performance or the weakening of the quality of the behavior.
And that's, I think, where often trainers struggle because they go, they get a little bit, oh, God, the quality, or he's not as fast or he's not as sparkly or he's not as joyful, because that's part of the process. Because the dog is learning, they're thinking, they're developing the knowledge and understanding to go, oh, okay, you want me to maintain this for longer? And it's really common with so many dogs that struggle with duration.
It's often because the trainer finds it uncomfortable to not reward the dog or to see a slight dip in the dog's performance whilst the dog understands that, oh, you want me to maintain this for longer? So imagine equate it to learning. You know, say you're preparing to run a marathon, you know, to get to the point of going from 1 mile to 2 miles or three and so forth, your body is going to be under a level of pressure and discomfort whilst it adjusts and strengthens to that next jump in distance and the same.
And when you do that, you're not. Doesn't mean that you're going to. Not if you want to run 24 miles or whatever is 26 miles to run a marathon, you can't just stay at running one or two. You have to prepare your body to be able to cope with ideally more than that, so that when you do attempt that longer distance, the body is adjusted and acclimatized and prepared for it.
The same can be said for duration. And that means as you're going along, that as you're jumping, say, for example, from 5 miles to 10 miles initially, that's going to be really, really hard work. You're probably not going to be at your best. Your form is going to diminish. You're probably going to really have to dig in to achieve that. After you've done that for several weeks, 10 miles now becomes easy.
Now we're going to push to 15, right? Same process. Then you'll master 15 and so forth. To 15 becomes, oh, yeah, easy peasy. Then pushing to that next level and the same process will ensue. The same can be said for duration behaviors in dog training. When you're pushing for that next step up, you need to allow the fact that the dog's behavior might diplenish. It might not be as sparkly as technically brilliant, it might not be as fast and dynamic, but that is part of the process to acquire, sorry, to achieve that standard of excellence with duration.
And for me, you know, dog sports is with the exception, probably agility. Most of them have a duration element to them, you know, mondio, IGP, obedience, heel-work,to music, scent work. They all have some element of duration in them. I'd say even, you know, you could say agility. It lasts, you know, what, 30 seconds, that's still duration. The dog has to do more than one jump or one element.
So duration behaviors and the concept duration is something that everybody should be familiar with teaching their dogs, whether it's duration in terms of how long a dog can maintain something or duration in how many behaviors a dog can offer without reinforcement or how long a dog can sustain a behavior without reinforcement and so forth. It's a really, really important entity to add to your dog's training to achieve excellence and to have a dog that is reliable and to have a dog that is proficient irrespective of the environment and so forth and so forth.
Melissa Breau: I absolutely think you kind of hit the nail on the head there. I think it's so easy to be scared that once the dog's criteria starts to slip that it's going to get stuck that way, you know? Yeah. All right, so you've got a workshop kind of looking specifically at teaching the concept of duration starting on the 25th. Do you want to talk just a little bit about what you're going to cover and maybe who might be interested in joining you?
Kamal Fernandez: Yeah, absolutely. So the upcoming workshop really goes into the nuances of how to teach your dog duration signals that can be used universally, irrespective of behavior, whether it's a static behavior or emotion based behavior. I would say it's something that everybody, irrespective of the dog sport that you train, should be familiar with and be competent at. And I mark my words, when you understand the concept of duration and how to explain that to your dog, it's a language that can be used irrespective of the behavior training, the sport that you want to do, and it can expedite the process and the timeline for your dog to learn things.
So you're going to be able to teach things to your dog quicker, and you're going to be able to explain to your dog the concept of duration or the idea of duration much more efficiently, then I would say a lot of people do traditionally ig, just gradually increasing their time. I can teach my dog a new behavior and duration in one session because they understand the language. That means you're correct. Keep doing that behavior.
Melissa Breau: Awesome. Any final thoughts or maybe key points you want to leave listeners with?
Kamal Fernandez: Yeah, you know, it's a, it's a workshop. The first time I'm teaching it, I'm really excited about it. I've done it for another platforms before, and it's been really, really well and super, super impactful for them. And it's been a game changer for so many people. Sign up, check it out by the FDSA. And I really look forward to having you partake in that workshop.
Melissa Breau: Fabulous. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Kamal.
Kamal Fernandez: Take care.
Melissa Breau: All right, and thanks to all our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Erin Lynes to talk about training your teenage dog. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available.
Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by Bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy.
Credits
Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.
Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!